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The thread, as far as I am involved, will be about the misuse of Judaism's central prayer known as the shema. I do not write or read Hebrew and I do not purport to be an expert on Judiasm. However, i can discuss the misuse of this prayer in a destructive way to the Bible's revelation of God's economy.
(economy meaning dispensation or household management, the rule of God's household, i.e. His plan over His own household)
For my part I will discuss how the shema can be misused to oppose the larger revelation of the Holy Bible concerning the dispensing of God into man. Some anti-trinitarians want to cease upon it to deny some parts of the NT.
Here you may read something about this Jewish prayer based upon Deuteronomy 6:4-9.
Shema Yisreal, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad
The website is called Hebrew for Christians.
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Torah/The_Shema/the_shema.html
To begin with please notice how the writer under a translation - [My bolding]
Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord the writer writes:
This translation marks that Lord our God is One. Interestingly, the word echad in Hebrew can imply a unity in diversity, (the word for one and only one i.e.,unique, is more often rendered yachid ). For example, in Exodus 26:6 the various parts of the Tabernacle (mishkan) are to be constructed so that "it shall be one (echad) tabernacle," and Ezekiel spoke of two "sticks" (representing fragmented israel) as being reunited into one: " and they shall be one (echad) in My hand" (Ezekiel 37:19) . Moses also used echad in Genesis 2:24 when he wrote "And they (husband and wife) will become one flesh (basar echad)."
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Divegeester's post from The Spirit was not yet
1) God is unchanging - sonship won't agree to this. He dances around the this basic fundamental with long exegesis of other scriptures looking for what he no doubt believes is a hidden truth which will support his erroneous teaching. God does not change. Do we agree, yes or no?
Do you call taking Malachi 3:5 in the context of the immediate previous verse 4 as "dancing around" ?
You are the one dancing AWAY from the context of the passage.
Morally, God is unchanging.
Now if you want to extend that matter, I don't care as long as you do not deny that God clothed Himself in His own creation and became a man.
If you want to say Malachi 3:5,6 extends beyond that context I don't care, as long as you do not deny that the last Adam became a life giving Spirit.
What is more important to me is not to enshrine the English phrase "change not" as an object of worship in itself. What is important to me to believe ALL that the Bible has taught me.
On one hand incarnation is a process that God went through.
On the other hand because in righteousness and holiness He changes not, the man Jesus the Lord is exalted.
My God is absolutely the Man Jesus.
2) God is one. Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one. God goes to extraordinary lengths to explain that he not on does not change, but that he is ONE and he will not give his glory to another. He is one. Do we agree, yes or no?
Echad is used to discribe the oneness of the man with the woman when they become "one flesh". That is a composite oneness.
One verse also suggests the three-oneness of God in the phrases repeated concerning God three times -
"The Lord, our God, The Lord, is one"
It is possible that the divine "heads up" indicates the three-oneness of the God of Israel will unfold eventually in His move to dispense God Himself into man.
1.) The Lord - Father
2.) Our God - Son
3.) The Lord - Holy Spirit
It is possible that this divine revelation is concealed in Deut. 6:4
"Hear, O Israel, Jehovah is our God; Jehovah is one." [RcV]
Jehovah - Father
Our God - the Son
Jehovah - the Holy Spirit
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3) The deity of Christ. The Revelation of Jesus Christ and the spirit empowered acknowledgement of his identity is the cornerstone of Christianity which has been bastardised over the last 2,000 years.
The "cornerstone of Christianity" people may consider one thing or another.
Jesus said the plural "WE" (John 14:23) of the Father and the Son would be dispensed into men who love the Son.
Elsewhere He did say "I am coming to you" (John 14:18) in speaking of the coming of the Holy Spirit, we should believe both teachings. We should experience both truths.
The Father and the Son come to dwell in the lovers of Christ as the divine "We" to make an abode with them.
The coming of the Spirit of reality as another Comforter is Christ not leaving the believers as orphans but Christ coming to them.
" ... the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:17,18)
The Father and the Son as the divine "We" are coming to indwell believers.
The Holy Spirit is coming to indwell believers - " that He may be with you forever"
And the Son is coming to them not leaving them as orphans.
The enjoyers of the Trinity coming to man cannot tell any difference because God is echad, is One.
To embrace the shema prayer is to embrace the Triune God.
And to embrace the Triune God is to embrace the shema prayer.
Jesus said "unless you believe (acknowledge) that I AM, you will die in your sins.
Thank God, we can be saved from our sins by the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
As Zechariah prophesied the Sending Jehovah God and the Sent Jehovah God will have many peoples joined to Him.
" ... and I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah, And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day and become My people; and I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you." ( See Zech. 2:10c,11)
Many nations will join themelves to the Triune God. He is Jehovah God Who comes to dwell in the midst being sent by Jehovah God. He is the Sent One and the Sender.
The Sent One and the Sender are echad - ONE.
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Jesus is Jehovah in the flesh. Made himself a little lower than the Angels. He is the right arm laid bare. The invisible God made visible. But it is the same person, the same entity, the same ONE God showing us and example of obedience and faith while redeeming manning for himself.
So then what is the problem?
No other "person" is involved. Emanuelle - God with us. Agree, yes or no?
Yes. The word "person" however, we can only borrow for the limitation of human language.
" We will come to him and make an abode with him" (John 14:23) involves persons. But we can only briefly borrow the words persons or person. We should not press it too far.
I can refer to the "Person" of the Triune God.
I can refer to the "Persons" of the Triune God.
But I understand that for the sake of the limitation of human language, this mysterious matter can only borrow those words.
It is a brief and guarded borrowing of the human language, otherwise we might not be able to say anything.
We don't want to imply either Tritheism - three Gods on one side or Modalism - the three are not in concurrent existence.
4) Baptism in the name of Jesus. Mathew 28 go baptise in the name of the father of the son and of the Holy Spirit. They didn't. They all, every time, without fail, baptised in the name of Jesus. Why? Because the name Jesus (God saves) IS the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit. They KNEW who he was. One person, one God revealing himself in the flesh.
This is the least impressive argument to me against the Triune God.
It has so little weight that I don't want to spend much time on it.
When we baptize people in the church where I fellowship, we may utter one or more things. What is most important is that we exercise our faith - both the person baptized and the ones baptizing that we are immersing them into God.
Making Matt. 28:19 fight against the record of Acts is due, I think, more often to some clergyman who doesn't want to play second fiddle to some other clergyman.
Ambition for position is more likely the root cause of the squabble rather than anything of a serious doctrinal nature. Many a division which apparently seems to be about points of doctrine, are really cloaked rivalry for turfs, leadership, and authority to boss people around.
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5) The "son" shall hand over all authority to the "father". But Isaiah says that "or his increase there shall be no end", so that's odd. But wait, this is ONE God, these are not "persons". These are offices of the same God. The office of "son" will come to an end after the dispensation (or whatever) of grace and judgment. There will be no need for the office of son. That's why the term "eternal son" is nowhere in the Bible.
I think you are teaching Modalism.
Three Gods is on one side an extreme - Tritheism.
Modalism is on the other side an extreme.
i find this publication helpful in guarding against the two opposite errors on two opposite extremes.
Modalism, Tritheism, or the Pure Revelation of the Triune God by Ron Kangus
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/booklets/modalism.html
These are my beliefs about the Godhead and I will not acquiesce to a foreign ideology that says my God is THREE when he is ONE. It is error. I don't care how many doves float from the sky or how many times Jesus prayed to the father. The base truth is that God is ONE.
We must experience and enjoy God.
And we certainly should just say Amen to whatever the word of God says about God.
Here's a portion of the publication linked above.
MODALISM
Some Definitions
Let us begin with modalism. Because this term is unfamiliar to many Christians, we need to define four words-mode, modal, modalism, and modalist. According to its philosophical meaning, a mode denotes the appearance or form assumed by a thing; it refers to the manifestation, form, or manner of arrangement of some underlying substance. The adjective modal specifies the mode of a thing as distinguished from its substance or essence. Modalism is the theological doctrine that the Father, Son, and Spirit are not three distinct Persons, but rather three modes or forms of activity under which God manifests Himself. A modalist is an adherent of the theological doctrine of modalism.
The Modalistic Concept of the Trinity
According to the modalistic concept of the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not equally and eternally co-existent, but are merely three successive manifestations of God, or three temporary modes of His activity. Modalism, which is actually a form of unitarianism, denies that God in His own inner being is triune. Rather, it claims that the Father, Son, and Spirit are either temporary or successive roles adopted by God in carrying out the divine plan of redemption and that they in no way correspond to anything in the ultimate nature of the Godhead.1 Modalism does not recognize the independent personality of Christ, but regards the incarnation as a mode of the existence or manifestation of the Father.2 For the modalists, the Father, Son, and Spirit only refer to the way in which God reveals Himself, but bear no relation to His inner being.3
Originally posted by sonshipWatchman Nee.
5) The "son" shall hand over all authority to the "father". But Isaiah says that "or his increase there shall be no end", so that's odd. But wait, this is ONE God, these are not "persons". These are offices of the same God. The office of "son" will come to an end after the dispensation (or whatever) of grace and judgment. There will be no need for t ...[text shortened]... efer to the way in which God reveals Himself, but bear no relation to His inner being.3
Now Ron Kangus.
What about your boy Paul .. dont like him when it comes to Trinity stuff?
But I would have you know, that
the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman is the man;
and the head of Christ is God.
(1 Corinthians 11:3 KJV)
God and Jesus Christ.
Two separate and distinct entities
Not the same
Not equal.
God is above everything
Jesus next under God
Then mankind.
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Originally posted by Rajk999Agreed, but then they will say "how about the Holy Spirit"?
Watchman Nee.
Now Ron Kangus.
What about your boy Paul .. dont like him when it comes to Trinity stuff?
But I would have you know, that
the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman is the man;
and the head of Christ is God.
(1 Corinthians 11:3 KJV)
God and Jesus Christ.
Two separate and distinct entities
Not the same
Not equal.
God is above everything
Jesus next under God
Then mankind.
22 May 16
Originally posted by checkbaiterThe Holy Ghost/Spirit is the power of God which is dispensed into all who God so chooses. The three [God, Christ, and HS] agree and act as one and they are one just as Christ and his disciples are one.
Agreed, but then they will say "how about the Holy Spirit"?
23 May 16
Originally posted by Rajk999And ALL of this BS is simply made up by clever men bent on control. All of you are so far into the brainwashing inherent to religion, you can't tell real from fantasy any more.
The Holy Ghost/Spirit is the power of God which is dispensed into all who God so chooses. The three [God, Christ, and HS] agree and act as one and they are one just as Christ and his disciples are one.
If I am wrong, call down your alleged god and have it strike me dead. Oh, you can't. Oh well, I rest my case.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
The Holy Ghost/Spirit is the power of God which is dispensed into all who God so chooses. The three [God, Christ, and HS] agree and act as one and they are one just as Christ and his disciples are one.
The Holy Ghost/Spirit is the power of God which is dispensed into all who God so chooses.
Sounds like Brother Lee.
Something of God "dispensed into all".
LOL! Sounds like Brother Witness Lee, how he use to talk.
Maybe I'm being a good influence on you after all Rajk999.
LOL.
Not bad, is it ?
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Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord - the writer writes:
This translation marks that Lord our God is One. Interestingly, the word echad in Hebrew can imply a unity in diversity, (the word for one and only one i.e.,unique, is more often rendered yachid ). For example, in Exodus 26:6 the various parts of the Tabernacle (mishkan) are to be constructed so that "it shall be one (echad) tabernacle," and Ezekiel spoke of two "sticks" (representing fragmented israel) as being reunited into one: " and they shall be one (echad) in My hand" (Ezekiel 37:19) . Moses also used echad in Genesis 2:24 when he wrote "And they (husband and wife) will become one flesh (basar echad)."
25 May 16
Originally posted by sonshipWell your Brother Lee got one thing right. The part he failed in was to assume that God cannot revoke someones eternal life.The Holy Ghost/Spirit is the power of God which is dispensed into all who God so chooses.
Sounds like Brother Lee.
Something of God [b] "dispensed into all".
LOL! Sounds like Brother Witness Lee, how he use to talk.
Maybe I'm being a good influence on you after all Rajk999.
LOL.
Not bad, is it ?[/b]
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Originally posted by Rajk999No, Lee got that right also.
Well your Brother Lee got one thing right. The part he failed in was to assume that God cannot revoke someones eternal life.
Once a person is born he cannot be unborn.
The credit has to go to the Bible.
But we have gone over again and again 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 many times in the past. And you never been about to refute it.
Some are saved and rewarded.
Some are saved yet so as through fire.
They suffer loss and lose a certain reward.
You've NEVER been able to refute it. And Lee simply stands with the New Testament and you do not.
So eternal life as a gift is not revoked. Yet in the millennial kingdom some are rewarded then to participate and some suffer loss but are still saved.
Go back to your instructors whoever they may be and admit to them that they have NO ANSWER for 1 Cor,. 3:13-15.
"The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work of what sort it is.
If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
Contrary to your assumption this passage is not an encouragement for anyone to be ambitious to suffer loss. But the fact of the matter is that some will suffer loss of reward yet not know any revoking of the gift of eternal life.
As for the five strict warnings in the book of Hebrews ? The dispenasional discipine still holds true.
Once born again you cannot be unborn again.