The non-beginning (and the end)

Originally posted by barstudd
All the praise to the Lord Above...the almighty creator of all things,

those who can not see the truth its time to turn your lights on and accept the living word.

Step into the truth peoples and stop fooling yourselves with your own temporary opinions.

darkness you chose to live, then darkness you will become.

seek and you shall find, but as far as the current worldy view you carry it is not the reason why you are here.

And how, exactly, do you presume to know all this?

Originally posted by barstudd
All the praise to the Lord Above...the almighty creator of all things,

those who can not see the truth its time to turn your lights on and accept the living word.

Step into the truth peoples and stop fooling yourselves with your own temporary opinions.

darkness you chose to live, then darkness you will become.

seek and you shall find, but as far as the current worldy view you carry it is not the reason why you are here.

Ther's more than one way to skin a cat🙂

Originally posted by barstudd
All the praise to the Lord Above...the almighty creator of all things,

those who can not see the truth its time to turn your lights on and accept the living word.

Step into the truth peoples and stop fooling yourselves with your own temporary opinions.

darkness you chose to live, then darkness you will become.

seek and you shall find, but as far as the current worldy view you carry it is not the reason why you are here.

Okay, now you've exhausted your quota of pat rubbish, try using your brain for a change to come up with something of interest.

Originally posted by knightmeister
A thought experiment.....

I know I have asked you many times and I don't think you have ever given an answer. What do you think about spacial dimensions? Is space infinite in extent? If not, then your thought experiment should apply to space too ie what is outside space?

Your whole thought experiment - and I know we have discussed this many many times - can be resolved by understanding dimensions better. If a finite time scale and finite spacial dimensions are all there is then there is no outside, no before, no after and no 'nothing'. What is, is.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I know I have asked you many times and I don't think you have ever given an answer. What do you think about spacial dimensions? Is space infinite in extent? If not, then your thought experiment should apply to space too ie what is outside space?

Your whole thought experiment - and I know we have discussed this many many times - can be resolved by under ...[text shortened]... are all there is then there is no outside, no before, no after and no 'nothing'. What is, is.

What do you think about spacial dimensions? Is space infinite in extent? If not, then your thought experiment should apply to space too ie what is outside space?
-------whitey-------------------------------

I think that the space/time we live in is finite. I don't know what is outside what we live in. However, if the space/time we live in "began" then that implies nothingness.

Originally posted by knightmeister
What do you think about spacial dimensions? Is space infinite in extent? If not, then your thought experiment should apply to space too ie what is outside space?
-------whitey-------------------------------

I think that the space/time we live in is finite. I don't know what is outside what we live in. However, if the space/time we live in "began" then that implies nothingness.

Why do you say space is limited? When I look at the stars at night there is nothing to suggest that its finite. (I could be wrong,could you? 🙂 )

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Why do you say space is limited? When I look at the stars at night there is nothing to suggest that its finite. (I could be wrong,could you? 🙂 )

I thought that science had demonstrated that the universe was once condensed into a tiny (but hugely dense) singualrity smaller than a cricket ball (or so some say). If that is so then all that we see must be an extension (or expansion ) of the singularity.

If science is also right about the universe being 12- 14 billion years old then it has to be finite , yes?

Why would you think it was infinite? Blooming big yes , but infinite?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I know I have asked you many times and I don't think you have ever given an answer. What do you think about spacial dimensions? Is space infinite in extent? If not, then your thought experiment should apply to space too ie what is outside space?

Your whole thought experiment - and I know we have discussed this many many times - can be resolved by under ...[text shortened]... are all there is then there is no outside, no before, no after and no 'nothing'. What is, is.

If a finite time scale and finite spacial dimensions are all there is then there is no outside, no before, no after and no 'nothing'. What is, is.
-------------------whitey----------

We are really on cross purposes here . Radically so.

I agree with the above statement and I have no problem with it. My conception of a finite existence (ie this universe is all there is) is the SAME as yours. Where we differ is that you think that this state of affairs is entirely logical and I think it doesn't make sense.

Here's my problem . If "all that there is" has a finite timescale then we can say that existence is roughly 12 million years old. This means that 12 million years ago it was a "singularity".

We cannot say what came "before" the singularity because there was no "before" - but also we cannot say that the singularity has always existed because that would extend the finite scale of existence to infinity.

So if we CANNOT say "existence has always existed" and you also say we cannot say " at some point existence did not exist" then where does that leave us. It simply makes no sense to say that existence is finite without positing that nothingness is a reality. Even though we cannot pinpoint a point "in time" where nothing "existed" (due to the paradoxical nature of our limited language) - it is still logical to conceive of nothing existing.

You also need to define what the universe "beginning" actually means , because to me it implies an event where at some point (not in time) the universe was not , and then it magically "was". Maybe you don't actually think that the universe magically "appeared" out of nothing 12 million years ago , but that

You need to stop interpreting everything in mathematical terms and think about it philosophically. Just because a term is not mathematically valid doesn't mean that it has no logical or philosophical sugnificance. I still think you are saying that the universe began out of nothing , and you know it's a problem.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I thought that science had demonstrated that the universe was once condensed into a tiny (but hugely dense) singualrity smaller than a cricket ball (or so some say). If that is so then all that we see must be an extension (or expansion ) of the singularity.

If science is also right about the universe being 12- 14 billion years old then it has to be finite , yes?

Why would you think it was infinite? Blooming big yes , but infinite?

Good answer. I'm still thinking about it myself,like I said ,I could be wrong. Do you think its possible that were more than on big bangs and hence we live in what is termed a 'multiverse' tather than just a universe? I know its a big question but give it a shot. All points of view are most welcome aboput such subjects-and how it all MIGHT relate to a creator. Cheers!

Originally posted by knightmeister
If a finite time scale and finite spacial dimensions are all there is then there is no outside, no before, no after and no 'nothing'. What is, is.
-------------------whitey----------

We are really on cross purposes here . Radically so.

I agree with the above statement and I have no problem with it. My conception of a finite existence (ie this u ...[text shortened]... at the universe began out of nothing , and you know it's a problem.

In regard to your post here I would like to say that I think 'thought' or 'mind' is the key for understanding this conundrem- for thought is not limited to space or time. Even if some materialists might think it is a by product of the brain- it is actually the other way around. Awesome.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Good answer. I'm still thinking about it myself,like I said ,I could be wrong. Do you think its possible that were more than on big bangs and hence we live in what is termed a 'multiverse' tather than just a universe? I know its a big question but give it a shot. All points of view are most welcome aboput such subjects-and how it all MIGHT relate to a creator. Cheers!

For me the multiverse idea makes no difference because it still doesn't remove the problem of a "beginning" to it all (eg like which multiverse was the first one). Personally , I'm more fan of string theory and brian greene's work.

As to how it relates to God - who knows. My thoughts are that God is beginning-less and eternal.

Originally posted by knightmeister
So if we CANNOT say "existence has always existed"

Yes we can, because 'always' means all time and all time is finite.

You need to stop interpreting everything in mathematical terms and think about it philosophically. Just because a term is not mathematically valid doesn't mean that it has no logical or philosophical sugnificance. I still think you are saying that the universe began out of nothing , and you know it's a problem.
And you are just hung up on having a God who is infinite. You are also hung up on time, with a complete failure to accept the possibility that it is finite. However much it is suggested you always think there must be a point 'beyond' it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
A thought experiment.....

One thing we do know is that something happened. Life exists. Existence "is". Stuff began. The Universe is a reality. We exist. Existence exists. The Big Bang "banged".

A thought that always occurred to me when I grew up was this. What if nothing had happened? No existence. No life . No reality. No Bang. Nothing to caus ...[text shortened]... ever was nothing there would always be nothing.

No beginning.

The observer universe is manifested out of a dynamic field of potentialities that exists without being manifested in the physical world; this existent mind-only and never manifested in the physical world field is not the opposite of the manifestation of the physical world as you offer it at your OP. On the contrary, your “Everything” and your “Nothing” lack of inherent being because they are existent solely thanks to this primal mind-only field of potentialities.

So “Life gets going”, because the existent possibility of its manifestation unveiled its reality at a given spacetime within the observer universe. In fact the observer universe just began to exist out of the mind-only field of potentialities simply because its existence was not impossible.

You cannot argue that this field is “caused” or that it is “nothing” or that it is “created”. You cannot go beyond this Vast Emptiness;

Nothing Holy😵

Originally posted by knightmeister
I think that the space/time we live in is finite. I don't know what is outside what we live in. However, if the space/time we live in "began" then that implies nothingness.

If the space time we live in is finite then there is nothing outside it - by definition.
There may be other existences, but they are not 'outside', 'after', 'before' or any other relative words.

Originally posted by twhitehead
If the space time we live in is finite then there is nothing outside it - by definition.
There may be other existences, but they are not 'outside', 'after', 'before' or any other relative words.

Which is all fine and dandy as long as you assume that the space/time we live in is the only form of space/time possible - Or that no other existence is possible other than space/time.

If you make these assumptions then your argument works. I see no reason to assume this.