The Passion

Originally posted by twhitehead
From Merriam Webster:
1 a: the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God
b: the act of claiming the attributes of deity
2: irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable

Clearly he was guilty of both 1 b: and 2, whether or not he told the truth.

How was he irreverent?

Originally posted by twhitehead
If I go to hell for my sins, am I still partially responsible for his death, and was his sacrifice for me a waste of time?

He died for all sins, including yours. If you don't choose to take advantage of his gift then that's your problem.

Twhitehead,

I am not sure how he chooses to bestow grace. However, I suspect that if you are not granted the blessing of joining the Lord in heaven, it will not be because of your sins but rather because you rejected God's grace by refusing to accept Jesus as the savior of mankind.

Did you consider the several points I presented? Why do you reject my conclusion?

Originally posted by chappy1
Well, I hope you do come to know him someday.

Well, I hope you never get that hope. I was not actually criticising Your God, just refusing to accept the concept that He could possibly exist except in the imagination of believers. I admire your faith, but please don't ask or expect me to share it.

Originally posted by muppyman
Well, I hope you never get that hope. I was not actually criticising Your God, just refusing to accept the concept that He could possibly exist except in the imagination of believers. I admire your faith, but please don't ask or expect me to share it.

It's not just you. I hope everyone will eventually come to know him someday.

Originally posted by muppyman
If you seriously consider that this God would take offence at a genuine opinion which happened to differ from yours, then let Him do something about it. But if you think that your thinly veiled threat of God's retribution being exacted upon the mockers will make us quiver, then here is His chance to either back you up or back away. Take your best shot God, if you can't abide critics.

Muppyman,

Many who attack the Gospel attempt to transfer the attack to the messengers. I seriously think that you are causing yourself damage not because I say so, but because He says so. There are any number of passages in the Bible that speak to the danger you are placing upon yourself. Unfortunately, I regret that your own vanity will likely be your greatest stumbling block, as it is for almost all of us, because with every word, you make it more difficult to admit you could be mistaken. When we allow our vanity to rule us, we reject God and break the first commandment. To reject God is to make yourself God in His place. Also, we know from the second commandment that God is jealous, probably not in a sense we truely understand, but mocking him will likely make it harder for you to later ask for his grace.

Most folks on the Internet that I read that choose to be adverse to god appear in three primary groups. The first I believe to be teenagers that desire to be edgy and are fond of rejecting their parents wisdom. The second are intellectuals that can not admit that there is any intellegence in the universe able to direct them in morality. These are the ones that have probably broken the first commandment and are in such a state that they are completely given over to the devil who sooths their vanity. The final group are the folks that must understand how there can be a gracious loving god and a world created by him with so much suffering. I don't pretend to know all the answers, especially for this last group, but I am certain an earnest committment to Him will give you the strength and wisdom to learn and be happier. Finally for this last group, I commend the book written by C. S. Lewis, "The Problem of Pain".

Matt 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven:

Originally posted by dinosaurus
Muppyman,

Many who attack the Gospel attempt to transfer the attack to the messengers. I seriously think that you are causing yourself damage not because I say so, but because He says so. There are any number of passages in the Bible that speak to the danger you are placing upon yourself. Unfortunately, I regret that your own vanity will likely be y ...[text shortened]... y, for my sake.

5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven:

Vanity of vanities saith the preacher, all is vanity.
Thank you for the fascinating dissertation and for caring enough to take the trouble to write it all. I am well familiar with all the scripture you quoted( the sermon on the mount) as most people probably are.
I think you would have been well advised to send it to someone who cares and who might be receptive. I want no part of it, so please be assured that you will not read my name in the Lambs book of life.
There are any number of passages in the bible that speak of almost anything one wants them to speak of. However, I have no confidence or faith in any or all of that book. It may be true that "it pleased God, by the foolishness of preaching" but preaching to me is foolishness indeed.

Originally posted by chappy1
I'm not worried just offended.

Why are you offended, he didn't criticize you, nor did he mock God (you claimed God will not be mocked).

Originally posted by chappy1
How was he irreverent?

He claimed to be God which was irreverence to the Jews concept of God. He was irreverent in other ways too, but I am sure you know that.

Originally posted by chappy1
He died for all sins, including yours. If you don't choose to take advantage of his gift then that's your problem.

So, was his death on my behalf therefore a waste of time? And did he know that at the time?

Originally posted by dinosaurus
Did you consider the several points I presented? Why do you reject my conclusion?

1) Jesus Christ was a real historical person that we can know because he was mentioned in other histories besides the Holy Bible. These other sources had no vested interest in Christianity.
Thats a popular myth. Can you present one single 'history' that mentions Jesus, that does not source its information from Christians? I do not dispute the existence of Christians.

2) An extremely large number of faithful people recognize that He cured many of sickness and preached a new Gospel of love, not for your friends and family, but for everyone even your enemies.
The numbers of the deluded does not make a delusion true. Are you a Roman Catholic? If not, you should be, or your argument is invalid. Think about it.

3) This has caused many to attempt to marginalize him as only a great prophet.
Who are those 'many'? Maybe you mean Mohamed? He had other reasons for marginalizing him.

4) However, he can not be a great prophet, for he did say he was the Son of God. Because of this, he must be either who he says he is, a pathalogical liar, or a raveing lunatic. Neither the second or third can be true given the historical record.
Or:
a) he didn't say it.
b) you misinterpreted it. (everyone is a son of God.)
And which historical record rules out your second and third possibilities? I would say the historical record in general supports them.

5) How many have given their lives for no personal benefit to spread the word of the Gospel. I do not think there is a similar comparison to be made of any of the other known religions.
You are clearly a very ignorant person.

6) As far as I am aware, there is no other religion that says you can never earn your way into Heaven. You can only receive Heaven by God's grace. Because this is unique among the theologies of the world, it deserves special analysis.
I am sure that every religion / god is unique in some way. Why don't they too deserve 'special analysis'?

The theology does not flatter man's ego and it therefore does not appear to be inspired by great earthly minds.
Ha Ha.

...

Originally posted by twhitehead
He claimed to be God which was irreverence to the Jews concept of God. He was irreverent in other ways too, but I am sure you know that.

He was God so it was not irreverence. He was simply telling the truth. How can that be irreverent?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So, was his death on my behalf therefore a waste of time? And did he know that at the time?

Did he know? You mean did he know that you would have a hardened heart? Of course. But to say it was a waste of time is not accurate because his one act was for everyone. That selfless act was so beautiful that I would NEVER use "waste of time" to describe it.

Originally posted by HumeA
A few days late, I know, but I was wondering what people's views on this were...

Who was responsible for the death of Jesus?

What was he convicted of, and was he guilty?


If there is anything else interesting you can think of, I'd be interested.

Acts 2:23


This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and YOU, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.