twhitehead,
Let me divide the discussion into its smaller bits so we may focus on specific points.
As I said, to the best of my knowledge, all the other religions of the world provide a formula to earn your way into heaven. Christianity does not. Only through God's grace can you get into heaven. You can never be good enough, you can never adequately atone for your sins, you may only receive the key to heaven as a gift. This is what makes Christianity unique and one reason it deserves more attention.
The formula method of theology, if you are a good boy or girl, your great grandpa God will let you stay at his house forever, flatter's men's egos. It lets them walk around and think they are better than their neighbor not just without guilt, but with vindication. This is the devils sweet song leading you to the cliff for your last fatal step.
There are any of a number of contemporary variations on this theme. Radical Muslim Jihadists killing infidels to inherit their reward in heaven, academics insisting everyone reject the classical institutions of greatness in favor of his own modern doctrines, and on and on.
Finally, I ask that you answer something for me. Is there anything I could ask that would cause you to reflect on your opinion? If not I would rather invest my time in something else. There are none so deaf as those who will not hear.
Originally posted by dinosaurusAs I said, to the best of my knowledge, all the other religions of the world provide a formula to earn your way into heaven.
twhitehead,
Let me divide the discussion into its smaller bits so we may focus on specific points.
As I said, to the best of my knowledge, all the other religions of the world provide a formula to earn your way into heaven. Christianity does not. Only through God's grace can you get into heaven. You can never be good enough, you can never adequat ...[text shortened]... rather invest my time in something else. There are none so deaf as those who will not hear.
First, my sincere respects for your use of the phrase “to the best of my knowledge”. Sad that I feel the need to say that, I suppose—but all too often people make bald assertions about other religions/philosophies about which they really know very little. (I suspect that I have been guilty of that, too.)
Second, your statement is not entirely correct. So far as I understand it, it is broadly correct for Islam (although there is a grace factor there as well), with the possible exception of the Sufis. Judaism has a multiplicity of views about ha olam ha’ba (the world to come), what that means, and who is or is not eligible; none of which are dogma.
In some schools (perhaps the majority) of Hinduism and Buddhism, the whole thing is cast in terms of karma, reincarnation (or transmigration of souls) and Nirvana (dissolution of the individual soul into Brahman, the ground of being). Zen has no doctrine on this at all, and focuses on satori as a state of enlightened awareness; so that if Zennists talk about “salvation” that’s generally what they mean without any regard to an “after-life” (sometimes Zennists use the reincarnation/Nirvana talk strictly metaphorically).
I am aware of no Taoist consideration of an after-life at all. Some people would not refer to Taoism (or Zen) as religions, but philosophies. Taoism, Zen and Vedanta (a stream of Hinduism) have no ultimate god-being at all: any god-talk is pretty much metaphorical.
Every religion claims uniqueness, and likely every religion has unique features. The Christian doctrine of salvation by grace through faith is one, variously interpreted by different streams within Christianity.
That pretty much covers the ones that I’ve studied (Judaism, Christianity and Zen more extensively than the others). I’ll just let you guys carry on now.
Originally posted by chappy1Lets go back to the definition:
He was God so it was not irreverence. He was simply telling the truth. How can that be irreverent?
2: irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable
He was not being irreverent to your God, he was being irreverent to the imaginary something that was considered sacred or inviolable by the pharisees and other Jews of the time.
Originally posted by dinosaurusNot all other religions are as you think.
As I said, to the best of my knowledge, all the other religions of the world provide a formula to earn your way into heaven. Christianity does not. Only through God's grace can you get into heaven. You can never be good enough, you can never adequately atone for your sins, you may only receive the key to heaven as a gift. This is what makes Christianity unique and one reason it deserves more attention.
Not all Christians believe as you do. As far as I know even Jesus - through the parable of the sheep and the goats - disagreed with you.
Can you explain why your version of Christianity deserves more attention? (so far you haven't).
The formula method of theology, if you are a good boy or girl, your great grandpa God will let you stay at his house forever, flatter's men's egos. It lets them walk around and think they are better than their neighbor not just without guilt, but with vindication. This is the devils sweet song leading you to the cliff for your last fatal step.
There are any of a number of contemporary variations on this theme. Radical Muslim Jihadists killing infidels to inherit their reward in heaven, academics insisting everyone reject the classical institutions of greatness in favor of his own modern doctrines, and on and on.
I'm not really sure what you are getting at there.
Finally, I ask that you answer something for me. Is there anything I could ask that would cause you to reflect on your opinion? If not I would rather invest my time in something else. There are none so deaf as those who will not hear.
Are you basically saying you are here to preach and will push off if I don't plan to be converted? If so, feel free to leave. Just remember that Jesus told parables about logs in eyes etc.
Would I believe in God if presented with sufficient evidence? Yes. Do I expect you present such evidence? No.
twhitehead,
You are a tough case. Let me rephrase my final question ...
Please let me know if you are determined to argue with anything I say rather than have a discussion about Christianity. If you wish to discuss Christianity, then I am willing to press on. If you are only determined to argue, then there is nothing to be gained by my efforts.
Now, trying to stick to the order of the discussion earlier ...
The other faiths I have some knowledge of all explain that to receive your reward in the afterlife (those that believe in that) you must behave. You must be good. Some say goodness is accomplished by following the law and other might say it is accomplished by becomming a hermit and meditating on goodness. If there is another religion that says you can never be good enough to deserve to be admitted into heaven, then please let me know.
Certainly it is a fact that all Christians do not believe as I do. However, I doubt most of those folks are actually Christians. I believe in what can be prooven by biblical examination. Please don't insult me and throw biblical metaphors at me about camels and needles and stuff. However, there are many doctrines that folks believe that are not true. Those that preach these unorthodox doctrines are necessary for salvation are not Christians or at least quite errant, even though they believe themselves to be so. Please help me recall the parable of the sheep and the goats that demonstrates Jesus does not believe you receive the gift of heaven through grace.
"My version of Christianity" is a bit tiresome. Have you found something in my explanations to be unorthodox? I don't consider my beliefs to be anything other than mainstream and your statement is an insulting attempt to marginalize my faith.
I thought it was clear that I believe Christianity deserves attention because it does not flatter man's ego. If I were to want to establish a following, would I not want to make it popular? I believe any wise man would. But that is not Christianity. And that is why I believe there is evidence it was not established by man, but God. Much of Christianity holds the promise of struggle. I often struggle because I would rather return evil with evil, and not love for evil. I don't want to pray for my enemies, and regretably I don't even pray for my friends as much as I should. But when I am in the right place with God, I do both.
I wish you luck in your life journey, and I hope you will someday understand the magnificence of the gift He gave us when he offered himself as the one perfect sacrifice for our sins.
Originally posted by dinosaurusIt seems to me that if I was a Christian, instead of an atheist, I would pin my confidence on two very simple scriptures from the New Testament. One says something like "by grace are you saved, through faith, not of works lest any man should boast, it is the free gift of God".
twhitehead,
You are a tough case. Let me rephrase my final question ...
Please let me know if you are determined to argue with anything I say rather than have a discussion about Christianity. If you wish to discuss Christianity, then I am willing to press on. If you are only determined to argue, then there is nothing to be gained by my efforts.
...[text shortened]... of the gift He gave us when he offered himself as the one perfect sacrifice for our sins.
The other says"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"
That kind of uncomplicated foundation would appeal to me if by some miracle I was able to accept the existence of God. But that will never happen.
So if I could offer evidence that God exists and you accepted the evidence, then you would skip all the intermediate stuff and go right to Christianity? Cool.
I agree that the two parts you pointed out sound pretty positive, but there are many other passages in the Holy Bible that promise trials and strife. Read the Beatitudes from the Sermon on the Mount. There would not be encouragement for "the poor" if God didn't know there would be many poor suffering through that while being Christians. Then there are the many other lamentations and things God tells us to work through without turning to the devil and giving up our faith. It is these things I speak of that do not flatter men's egos.
As for the existence of God, consider this. Have you noticed that every culture has a code of ethics of one sort or another. Also note that throughout all these many cultures, these codes have substanital similarities. I don't know of any culture that permits stealing or considers it a virtue. Likewise, I don't know of a culture that permits murder and considers it a virtue. This is because when God makes us, he imprints on our soul his code of ethics. This is why whenever you do something bad, you feel guilty. Not because anyone else sees you, but because you know in your heart God has seen you and you violated one of his laws. This is evidence that God exists, and it is evidence that he is on the side of good. Nobody ever gets concerned they will be caught being good. They are only concerned they will be caught being bad. This is because being bad is a sin against God's goodness.
Good Luck.
Originally posted by dinosaurusNone of this comes within a bull's roar of making me even begin to consider accepting this God's existence. If I do something you might consider "bad" I certainly do not feel guilty. I gave up such caustic emotions as guilt, anger, jealousy, boredom, etc. many years ago. In my view there is nothing worthwhile that can be achieved by the exercise of such nonsensical emotions.
So if I could offer evidence that God exists and you accepted the evidence, then you would skip all the intermediate stuff and go right to Christianity? Cool.
I agree that the two parts you pointed out sound pretty positive, but there are many other passages in the Holy Bible that promise trials and strife. Read the Beatitudes from the Sermon on the ...[text shortened]... ught being bad. This is because being bad is a sin against God's goodness.
Good Luck.
Originally posted by dinosaurusI do not argue for the sake of contradicting people if that is what you are asking. If I disagree with something you say, it is because I honestly don't think it is correct, and actually would like to explain to you why I don't think it is correct and hope that either you will come to see it my way or will convince me that it is me that is in error.
twhitehead,
You are a tough case. Let me rephrase my final question ...
Please let me know if you are determined to argue with anything I say rather than have a discussion about Christianity. If you wish to discuss Christianity, then I am willing to press on. If you are only determined to argue, then there is nothing to be gained by my efforts.
The other faiths I have some knowledge of all explain that to receive your reward in the afterlife (those that believe in that) you must behave. You must be good. Some say goodness is accomplished by following the law and other might say it is accomplished by becomming a hermit and meditating on goodness. If there is another religion that says you can never be good enough to deserve to be admitted into heaven, then please let me know.
As with Christianity there is a large range of beliefs in every religion. I do not think that Christianity is unique in the aspect you give, and as mentioned before, not all Christians believe it either.
Certainly it is a fact that all Christians do not believe as I do. However, I doubt most of those folks are actually Christians.
Of course that depends on what you mean by 'Christian'. I just hope you realize that by attempting to remove the label from them you are deliberately insulting them and that some of them would be happy to return the insult.
I believe in what can be prooven by biblical examination.
And I would be interested to know what you think constitutes proof. I am yet to find two people who can agree on what their Biblical examination has brought to light.
Please help me recall the parable of the sheep and the goats that demonstrates Jesus does not believe you receive the gift of heaven through grace.
Odd that you don't know it. Basically Jesus says quite clearly that on Judgment Day, everyone will be Judged based on whether or not they helped their fellow man.
"My version of Christianity" is a bit tiresome. Have you found something in my explanations to be unorthodox? I don't consider my beliefs to be anything other than mainstream and your statement is an insulting attempt to marginalize my faith.
There is no such thing as 'mainstream' in Christianity. I come from a town with a population of 200,000 and over 150 denominations.
I thought it was clear that I believe Christianity deserves attention because it does not flatter man's ego.
It was clear that you think that, but not clear as to why.
If I were to want to establish a following, would I not want to make it popular? I believe any wise man would. But that is not Christianity.
And that is why I believe there is evidence it was not established by man, but God.
Unless there is a lot more to it, that shows a remarkable lack of thought on your part.
1. Suppose for a moment that Christianity was not actually 'invented' specifically to establish a following.
2. Do you honestly believe that other religions are particularly flattering?
3. How does Christianity get so many followers then?
4. If I can find you another unpopular religion, will you accept that it too was established by God?