1. Joined
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    21 Oct '08 07:50
    By popular demand(twhite) let us discuss the philosphy of adam. what can be understood from the creation of the first man?

    maybe we should refrain from comments such as "god created him, said he did, i don't need to know more". at least from now. and comments like "christians are idiots, adam didn't exist and there is no spoon" at least at first.
  2. Subscribersonhouse
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    21 Oct '08 09:01
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    By popular demand(twhite) let us discuss the philosphy of adam. what can be understood from the creation of the first man?

    maybe we should refrain from comments such as "god created him, said he did, i don't need to know more". at least from now. and comments like "christians are idiots, adam didn't exist and there is no spoon" at least at first.
    Anthropologists talk about an awakening in the minds of men that changed the course of human history. The mind of Adam might be the story of that awakening that happened in the human race. The idea was the human race before the awakening were stuck in their ways unable to advance or communicate, then language came about and the history of the human race exploded with creativity. The cave drawings in France from 20,000 years ago shows a newly developed sense of art, one indication of such awakening.
  3. Cape Town
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    21 Oct '08 09:27
    Assuming that Adam did not exist as an actual person, what does the story of the Garden of Eden teach us?

    There are a number of aspects to it, all of which raise questions for me.

    A few of the biggest:
    Are women to be seen as an after thought or secondary to men?

    Why do Adam and Eve get punished for what was essentially negligence on Gods part? Or was it not really punishment but a case of God trying to contain his mistake and limit Adams abilities? If God reduces Adams lifespan to limit his abilities, does that mean he no-longer knows right from wrong in heaven? If heaven is so much better, then why is a shortened life span seen as punishment not reward?

    Is the whole forbidden fruit thing an attempt to explain the origin of evil and if so, does it provide a satisfactory explanation?
    God apparently created the universe with something totally different in mind. How does it reflect on his supposed omniscience?

    Are we to take it that Humans are Gods greatest creation, the pinnacle of life etc? If we evolve into something else, or some other animal evolves equal intelligence, or computers become sentient, will Genesis need adjusting, or will we remain firm favorites?
  4. Cape Town
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    21 Oct '08 09:31
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Anthropologists talk about an awakening in the minds of men that changed the course of human history. The mind of Adam might be the story of that awakening that happened in the human race. The idea was the human race before the awakening were stuck in their ways unable to advance or communicate, then language came about and the history of the human race exp ...[text shortened]... ce from 20,000 years ago shows a newly developed sense of art, one indication of such awakening.
    Language is clearly a great enabling factor, but the image you portray of Humans being held back by some enormous failing is totally wrong.
    Humans were quite successful in their situation, and although they may not have been achieving the potential of more modern humans that should not be viewed as 'sleepy' or 'backward'. I doubt you would describe chimpanzees as 'stuck in their ways' or 'unable to advance or communicate', yet they could just as easily develop the ability of language at some future point in time.
  5. Subscribersonhouse
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    21 Oct '08 09:43
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Language is clearly a great enabling factor, but the image you portray of Humans being held back by some enormous failing is totally wrong.
    Humans were quite successful in their situation, and although they may not have been achieving the potential of more modern humans that should not be viewed as 'sleepy' or 'backward'. I doubt you would describe chimp ...[text shortened]... they could just as easily develop the ability of language at some future point in time.
    I am talking about the incredible length of time where things happened just as they did 10,000 years before, 20,000 years before that, etc. There was a definite jump start of human intellectuality around 20,000 years ago or so, probably as the result of developing language, which led to a deeper understanding of their environment, making fire by themselves, building real shelters, knowing you CAN build shelters, not just stacking a bunch of bones up and tying them together which was what basically shelter meant for a hundred thousand years, after the jump start, we were taming horses and such, using nature around them in ways never before thought of.
  6. Joined
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    21 Oct '08 10:20
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Assuming that Adam did not exist as an actual person, what does the story of the Garden of Eden teach us?

    There are a number of aspects to it, all of which raise questions for me.

    A few of the biggest:
    Are women to be seen as an after thought or secondary to men?

    Why do Adam and Eve get punished for what was essentially negligence on Gods part? ...[text shortened]... ce, or computers become sentient, will Genesis need adjusting, or will we remain firm favorites?
    my opinion of the forbidden fruit is that with knowledge and understanding comes suffering, comes hunger for more.

    before the apple, man was happy being simple, no need for clothes, for luxury, he ate whatever came his way. god provided. once he asked for knowledge and took it, he saw that he was naked and began asking for more. the expulsion from the garden of eden can be understood as god telling adam he can no longer be happy in a simple place and he must make a life for him elsewhere.
  7. Joined
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    21 Oct '08 10:33
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Assuming that Adam did not exist as an actual person, what does the story of the Garden of Eden teach us?

    There are a number of aspects to it, all of which raise questions for me.

    A few of the biggest:
    Are women to be seen as an after thought or secondary to men?

    Why do Adam and Eve get punished for what was essentially negligence on Gods part? ...[text shortened]... ce, or computers become sentient, will Genesis need adjusting, or will we remain firm favorites?
    about women i don't think we can even invent some hidden meanings. eve was clearly meant as a subordinate to Adam, no surprise there as all women were the property of men then. so it is logical that the creaters of the adam story be assigning her under the leadership and guidance of adam.
  8. Subscribersonhouse
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    21 Oct '08 10:51
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    about women i don't think we can even invent some hidden meanings. eve was clearly meant as a subordinate to Adam, no surprise there as all women were the property of men then. so it is logical that the creaters of the adam story be assigning her under the leadership and guidance of adam.
    Which is still going on for billions of people around the world today. You don't think the Adam story to be an allegory to the enlightnment of mankind as they appeared 20,000 years ago, when art started appearing on cave walls, showing abstract thinking for the first time and probably the first languages?
  9. Standard memberNemesio
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    22 Oct '08 06:08
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    there is no spoon
    Nice.
  10. Cape Town
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    22 Oct '08 06:55
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Which is still going on for billions of people around the world today. You don't think the Adam story to be an allegory to the enlightnment of mankind as they appeared 20,000 years ago, when art started appearing on cave walls, showing abstract thinking for the first time and probably the first languages?
    I think you are trying to make a connection between two unrelated things for no other reason than the desire to make a connection. Can you give one good reason why there should be a connection between the two?
    If you think the story is inspired by God, then why would he want to create such an allegory is such a devious fashion? If the story is not inspired by God, then how on earth do you explain the allegory coming about?
  11. Cape Town
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    22 Oct '08 06:57
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    about women i don't think we can even invent some hidden meanings. eve was clearly meant as a subordinate to Adam, no surprise there as all women were the property of men then. so it is logical that the creaters of the adam story be assigning her under the leadership and guidance of adam.
    So you think that we should take it as simply a product of the beliefs and culture of the writers coming through in the story? Should we take any of the story as coming from God? If not, then why should it remain in the Bible? What purpose does it serve? (I am not saying it shouldn't, merely asking for clarification).
  12. Cape Town
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    22 Oct '08 07:01
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    my opinion of the forbidden fruit is that with knowledge and understanding comes suffering, comes hunger for more.

    before the apple, man was happy being simple, no need for clothes, for luxury, he ate whatever came his way. god provided. once he asked for knowledge and took it, he saw that he was naked and began asking for more. the expulsion from the g ...[text shortened]... ling adam he can no longer be happy in a simple place and he must make a life for him elsewhere.
    But what should we learn from that? Should we be thankful for our suffering as it is a compromise for having knowledge? To what extent is that actually true? How much of our suffering is really a result of our intellect? Is there a connection between the existence of AIDS and malaria and knowledge, or is it confined to other areas of suffering?
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    22 Oct '08 07:18
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Assuming that Adam did not exist as an actual person, what does the story of the Garden of Eden teach us?

    There are a number of aspects to it, all of which raise questions for me....
    All of these are very good philosophical and theological issues, no matter where you fall in the discussion.

    Interesting that you bring up the question of: Assuming that Adam did not exist as an actual person, what does the story of the Garden of Eden teach us? I would suppose that some part of the teaching is about the start of mankind's sense of spiritual awakening to a Creator, as they saw it. It's as much a story of basic ideas of God as it is the relationship between God and human and how this spiritual awakening changed that relationship. And if one is asking those kinds of questions and looking for easy answers (or perhaps answers at all) then one is treading on murky ground.

    Take for example the idea of an omnipotent God, one that is all-knowing, etc. We all know the paradigm. Yet, the Garden of Eden story seems to be knocking that notion down, and saying that is not what God is. God changes his mind. God would not tell Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit if God fully knew for sure, knew past, present, and future, that they would. When they eat of the fruit God goes looking for Adam, asking 'Where the heck are you?' Why? Because God doesn't know where Adam is!

    The story remains a puzzle to me and the questions you raise are exactly why it remains so for me. As I get older and ponder the writings (and hopefully grow somewhat wiser), I think I've gotten a better sense of what the writer(s) were trying to convey and yet there is a part that will forever be elusive to me. There will never be pat answers, one way or the other. At least for me that is the case.
  14. Standard memberblack beetle
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    22 Oct '08 10:16
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    By popular demand(twhite) let us discuss the philosphy of adam. what can be understood from the creation of the first man?

    maybe we should refrain from comments such as "god created him, said he did, i don't need to know more". at least from now. and comments like "christians are idiots, adam didn't exist and there is no spoon" at least at first.
    The tale of Adam and Eve is the perfect tool required for a state of the art manipulation of the humanity by the representatives and the commercial travellers of "God" worldwide.
    Without an "original sin" a "savior" would never been required, thus the biggest franchising on Earth -Abrahamic Religions Co.- would never stood a chance to exist🙂
  15. Cape Town
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    22 Oct '08 11:21
    Originally posted by black beetle
    Without an "original sin" a "savior" would never been required, ...
    Thanks for the reminder.
    One major question that Genesis raises for me, is that Genesis is clearly an attempt to explain the origin of original sin, but if it is not to be taken literally, then does it explain it at all, and does original sin really exist? If Adam did not really exist, then whose sin am I paying off?
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