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    20 Jun '15 15:44
    from the encyclical:

    "81. Human beings, even if we postulate a process of evolution, also possess a uniqueness which cannot be fully explained by the evolution of other open systems. Each of us has his or her own personal identity and is capable of entering into dialogue with others and with God himself. Our capacity to reason, to develop arguments, to be inventive, to interpret reality and to create art, along with other not yet discovered capacities, are signs of a uniqueness which transcends the spheres of physics and biology. The sheer novelty involved in the emergence of a personal being within a material universe presupposes a direct action of God and a particular call to life and to relationship on the part of a “Thou” who addresses himself to another “thou”. The biblical accounts of creation invite us to see each human being as a subject who can never be reduced to the status of an object. "

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si.html
  2. Standard memberRJHinds
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    21 Jun '15 03:33
    Originally posted by JS357
    from the encyclical:

    "81. Human beings, even if we postulate a process of evolution, also possess a uniqueness which cannot be fully explained by the evolution of other open systems. Each of us has his or her own personal identity and is capable of entering into dialogue with others and with God himself. Our capacity to reason, to develop arguments, to be i ...[text shortened]... .va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si.html
    Postulate evolution? That is to ASSUME... which makes an ASS out of U and ME. Perhaps the Pope or whoever actually wrote this in the Roman Catholic Chuch is not so convinced of evolution as some people have thought.
  3. SubscriberFMF
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    21 Jun '15 05:112 edits
    Originally quoted by JS357
    Our capacity to reason, to develop arguments, to be inventive, to interpret reality and to create art, along with other not yet discovered capacities, are signs of a uniqueness which transcends the spheres of physics and biology.
    The above sentence, for me, visits the enigmatic nature of the human spirit and touches upon the reason why so many people embrace a religion ~ including myself for many years. Cogitating the exact meaning of the word "transcends" here could keep philosophers, religionists, and assorted spiritually/intellectually curious people, animated, baffled and grappling with one another their whole lives long.
  4. Joined
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    21 Jun '15 15:50
    Originally posted by FMF
    The above sentence, for me, visits the enigmatic nature of the human spirit and touches upon the reason why so many people embrace a religion ~ including myself for many years. Cogitating the exact meaning of the word "transcends" here could keep philosophers, religionists, and assorted spiritually/intellectually curious people, animated, baffled and grappling with one another their whole lives long.
    As is the intent.
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    21 Jun '15 15:51
    Originally posted by josephw
    As is the intent.
    The intent of the Pope?
  6. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    21 Jun '15 16:05
    Originally posted by JS357
    from the encyclical:

    "81. Human beings, even if we postulate a process of evolution, also possess a uniqueness which cannot be fully explained by the evolution of other open systems. Each of us has his or her own personal identity and is capable of entering into dialogue with others and with God himself. Our capacity to reason, to develop arguments, to be i ...[text shortened]... .va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si.html
    I'm not so quick to say that human uniqueness can't be explained by physics and biology. Perhaps it can't now, because there is much about the mind we have not discovered.

    However, I also don't think the human experience would be cheapened even if it could be fully explained by things like the firing of neurons in the brain and evolution. There would still remain the emergent properties that make us unique. There would still be the need to chart individual spiritual paths to relate to the larger world.
  7. Joined
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    21 Jun '15 16:06
    Originally posted by FMF
    The intent of the Pope?
    Gee FMF, I don't know! Who was it that said "transcend"? Was it the Pope, or was it his speech writers? Or is it a force of influence designed to keep the world in a constant state of confusion "baffled and grappling with one another their whole lives long"?
  8. SubscriberFMF
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    21 Jun '15 16:12
    Originally posted by josephw
    Gee FMF, I don't know! Who was it that said "transcend"? Was it the Pope, or was it his speech writers? Or is it a force of influence designed to keep the world in a constant state of confusion "baffled and grappling with one another their whole lives long"?
    So what did you mean?
  9. Joined
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    21 Jun '15 16:215 edits
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    I'm not so quick to say that human uniqueness [b]can't be explained by physics and biology. Perhaps it can't now, because there is much about the mind we have not discovered.

    However, I also don't think the human experience would be cheapened even if it could be fully explained by things like the firing of neurons in the brain and evolut ...[text shortened]... There would still be the need to chart individual spiritual paths to relate to the larger world.[/b]
    "I'm not so quick to say that human uniqueness can't be explained by physics and biology."

    I would tend to agree except our uniqueness may not be fully explainable by physics and biology alone.

    "However, I also don't think the human experience could be cheapened even if it could be fully explained by things like the firing of neurons in the brain and evolution."

    Not cheapened, but only if physics and biology can't delve into the aspects of our uniqueness that transcends the scope of science.

    You know, that invisible stuff nobody can agree on even exists! 😉
  10. Cape Town
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    21 Jun '15 17:25
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    There would still remain the emergent properties that make us unique.
    My biggest issue with the Popes message in the OP, is that it fails to specify what is so unique about humans as opposed to animals. Many emergent properties found in humans are also found in animals. Could all animals with brains also lay claim to a form of uniqueness? If so, what are the implications? If they can't then what makes us different?
    If an artificial intelligence is created by us and it is 2000 times more intelligent than us and new emergent properties arise, can it claim uniqueness (and therefore some special connection to God, perhaps) ?
  11. Standard membervivify
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    21 Jun '15 20:16
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    My biggest issue with the Popes message in the OP, is that it fails to specify what is so unique about humans as opposed to animals.
    "capable of entering into dialogue with others and with God himself. Our capacity to reason, to develop arguments, to be inventive, to interpret reality and to create art".
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
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    22 Jun '15 19:41
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    My biggest issue with the Popes message in the OP, is that it fails to specify what is so unique about humans as opposed to animals. Many emergent properties found in humans are also found in animals. Could all animals with brains also lay claim to a form of uniqueness? If so, what are the implications? If they can't then what makes us different?
    If an a ...[text shortened]... perties arise, can it claim uniqueness (and therefore some special connection to God, perhaps) ?
    You are drifting into delusions and the world of science fiction and imaginary fairy tales.
  13. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    22 Jun '15 19:53
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    You are drifting into delusions and the world of science fiction and imaginary fairy tales.
    Why, has he clicked on one of your youtube links?
  14. Cape Town
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    22 Jun '15 20:52
    Originally posted by vivify
    "capable of entering into dialogue with others and with God himself. Our capacity to reason, to develop arguments, to be inventive, to interpret reality and to create art".
    All carefully picked in the belief that they are unique to humans (which they aren't). My point is that the uniqueness is selected to make humans special.
    Why not say that Kangaroos are unique because: and list their unique characteristics.
    Why not say that all animals capable of using tools are unique.
    Why pick a particular set of characteristics?

    And what happens when AI out does us?
  15. SubscriberFMF
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    24 Jun '15 00:48
    Originally posted by josephw
    Gee FMF, I don't know! Who was it that said "transcend"? Was it the Pope, or was it his speech writers? Or is it a force of influence designed to keep the world in a constant state of confusion "baffled and grappling with one another their whole lives long"?
    The Pope wrote: "Our capacity to reason, to develop arguments, to be inventive, to interpret reality and to create art, along with other not yet discovered capacities, are signs of a uniqueness which transcends the spheres of physics and biology." Do you agree with him, yes or no?
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