1. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
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    21 Apr '11 11:35
    ... is completely unnecessary.

    Accepting that God cannot be demonstrated scientifically
    it is nothing else but intellectual honesty, shifting God from
    the realm of skeptics into the realm of faith --which, in turn,
    is what God asks from us.

    So, let's not try to "prove" God's existence. It is not possible
    nor necessary. Only through faith we can get to know Him
    personally. And it is perfectly fine like that 🙂
  2. Cape Town
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    21 Apr '11 11:58
    The next question is whether evidence of Gods existence can be obtained. If it can, then it sheds doubt on your 'realm of faith' comment. If it can't then is your faith not somewhat misplaced?
  3. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
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    21 Apr '11 12:20
    The proper question is: how would anybody want to
    put time into searching "evidence" of God's existence?
  4. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    21 Apr '11 21:161 edit
    Originally posted by Seitse
    The proper question is: how would anybody want to
    put time into searching "evidence" of God's existence?
    If your belief affects no one else, then, by all means, believe what you want. Your belief in god, at a basic level, has no effect on me at all. But if your belief is going to lead to situations that do affect me, then some evidence will have to be forthcoming.
  5. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
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    22 Apr '11 08:21
    Originally posted by rwingett
    If your belief affects no one else, then, by all means, believe what you want. Your belief in god, at a basic level, has no effect on me at all. But if your belief is going to lead to situations that do affect me, then some evidence will have to be forthcoming.
    Likewise.
  6. Standard memberPalynka
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    22 Apr '11 09:37
    Originally posted by Seitse
    Accepting that God cannot be demonstrated scientifically
    it is nothing else but intellectual honesty
    Intellectual honesty is admitting that only a God with no effect on the universe is impossible to demonstrate scientifically.

    So the undemonstrable God theory is a cop-out.
  7. Standard memberSeitse
    Doug Stanhope
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    22 Apr '11 14:561 edit
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Intellectual honesty is admitting that only a God with no effect on the universe is impossible to demonstrate scientifically.

    So the undemonstrable God theory is a cop-out.
    Kelsen's Zurechnung passed you through by midnight, didn't it?
  8. Standard memberPalynka
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    22 Apr '11 20:40
    Originally posted by Seitse
    Kelsen's Zurechnung passed you through by midnight, didn't it?
    Maybe. Must have missed it, though, as I have no clue what you're talking about!
  9. Joined
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    22 Apr '11 21:35
    Originally posted by Seitse
    ... is completely unnecessary.

    Accepting that God cannot be demonstrated scientifically
    it is nothing else but intellectual honesty, shifting God from
    the realm of skeptics into the realm of faith --which, in turn,
    is what God asks from us.

    So, let's not try to "prove" God's existence. It is not possible
    nor necessary. Only through faith we can get to know Him
    personally. And it is perfectly fine like that 🙂
    I am inspired by your post to think of the trapped Chilean miners. They did not know that they would be saved, they had no proof of that, but their actions reveal that they had faith that they would be. It is very tricky to distinguish faith from belief, but it is a useful distinction. It isn't just "acting as if," it's "being as if."

    This is not to say that I have, or that I think anyone should have, faith in the usual depictions of God.
  10. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
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    22 Apr '11 22:56
    Originally posted by JS357
    I am inspired by your post to think of the trapped Chilean miners. They did not know that they would be saved, they had no proof of that, but their actions reveal that they had faith that they would be. It is very tricky to distinguish faith from belief, but it is a useful distinction. It isn't just "acting as if," it's "being as if."

    This is not to say that I have, or that I think anyone should have, faith in the usual depictions of God.
    I suggest that in this example, belief is far more likely to have been relevant than blind faith. They had a well founded confidence.

    Mining accidents are common and miners are not only trained to anticipate them but also have a strong personal interest in knowing as much as they can about it. What to do in order to maximise your chances of survival is high on their list of shared wisdom. Quite often the best thing to do is as little as possible- conserving energy and waiting for rescue however long the odds.

    One thing miners enjoy is a very strong bond of collective solidarity and any miner will know that their colleagues will dig with their bare hands if need be to rescue them. It is the weight of their fellow workers' solidarity that ensures a rescue - not the wishful hope that the mine owners can be trusted to care a tinker's curse.

    That collective solidarity is the reason why the English Tories destroyed the mining industry. They hated it.
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    23 Apr '11 23:34
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    The next question is whether evidence of Gods existence can be obtained. If it can, then it sheds doubt on your 'realm of faith' comment. If it can't then is your faith not somewhat misplaced?
    I would say proof of God, or "evidence", cannot be obtained. Not to all men as a species. I also object to your question, "If it can't then is your faith not somewhat misplaced?" Taking as a given that proof of God cannot be obtained, Faith in God is never misplaced. Faith requires the absence of proof. If the existence of God could be proven, Faith would cease to exist, replaced by knowledge. The entire foundation of religion is Faith, therefore proof of God will never be found (except maybe at the Second Coming, but by then it will be too late for Faith).

    All this being said, I believe a personal "proof" of God can be found by the individual, through their Faith. Most of the stars of the Old Testament obtained their personal proof through Faith. It is as easy today, only given enough Faith.

    "Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this [which is done] to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." -- Matthew 21:21-22

    And that includes your personal "proof".
  12. Cape Town
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    24 Apr '11 06:54
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    I also object to your question, "If it can't then is your faith not somewhat misplaced?" Taking as a given that proof of God cannot be obtained, Faith in God is never misplaced. Faith requires the absence of proof.
    You will note that I was referring to a case of absence of evidence. If you have zero reason for believing something then is not your faith misplaced? Why do you not have faith in the cookie monster? Is your God more desirable, or do you believe there is a shred of evidence to support his existence over the cookie monster?

    All this being said, I believe a personal "proof" of God can be found by the individual, through their Faith. Most of the stars of the Old Testament obtained their personal proof through Faith. It is as easy today, only given enough Faith.
    So faith is only temporary? Once 'personal proof' is obtained, you no-longer have faith?
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    24 Apr '11 07:13
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    I would say proof of God, or "evidence", cannot be obtained. Not to all men as a species. I also object to your question, "If it can't then is your faith not somewhat misplaced?" Taking as a given that proof of God cannot be obtained, Faith in God is never misplaced. Faith requires the absence of proof. If the existence of God could be proven, Faith wo ...[text shortened]... g, ye shall receive." -- Matthew 21:21-22

    And that includes your personal "proof".
    I believe there is evidence and proof of God's existance all around me.
    I see it every day. Some others don't see it. But as you say, it may
    be my faith that God exists that allows me to see the proof.
  14. Donationrwingett
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    24 Apr '11 07:17
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I believe there is evidence and proof of God's existance all around me.
    I see it every day. Some others don't see it. But as you say, it may
    be my faith that God exists that allows me to see the proof.
    That doesn't quite fulfill the definition of 'proof', now does it?
  15. Joined
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    24 Apr '11 07:41
    If you want proof that God exists, start with you head and work down to your feet.

    Confessing all known sins and asking to be washed in the blood of Jesus.

    Lord, what my eyes say. I confess ..
    Lord, what my ears heard. I confess my sins ...
    Lord Jesus, what my hands handled here and there. I confess my sins.
    Lord, where my feet carried me over there to sin. Lord Jesus I confess.

    You bring your known sins under the blood of Jesus and you will have no problem that God exists.

    The barrier is your sins.
    No it is not something more interesting or good for great talk.
    The barrier is your sins which need cleansing in the redemption of Christ.

    I said the obstacle is your boring old sins. Nothing that fascinating for good discussion. Your sins have made a separation between you and God.

    No, it is not Quantum Mechanics or Natural Selection which is getting in the way.
    Trust me. It is your SINS which is the barrier.
    So confess and get cleansed for sweet fellowship with the Lord Jesus.
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