the real issue

Originally posted by knightmeister

The evidence I talk about is not one that will stand up in court nor would it appeal to a scientist...but the evidence is for the individual. This evidence can do what no testube can . It can reach inside you and open your mind. This evidence is "proof" ..but only to the individual who experiences it. Science is a good way of trying to establish trut ...[text shortened]... of people , but it is not the only way of knowing things and inquiring into life's mysteries.

Rot and nonsense.
You are talking purely about your personal experience. Why is your experience any more valid than a million muslims, hindus, all those (long dead) vikings etc etc. It is your opinion, nothing more.

Originally posted by knightmeister
They are just concepts that you have been brainwashed into believing, when in fact there is nothing.HOWARDGEE

And you have experienced what I speak of then? On what grounds do you make your assertion that Jesus is not there in the room in the form of the Holy Spirit?

Of course there is no evidence that God does not exist, just as there is no evidence that the tooth fairy does not exist.
The complete lack of evidence for either should be enough to convince any rational being that neither exists.
Your 'feelings' that God, the holy spirit and Jesus exist are no more proof of their existence than a child's feeling that tooth fairies exist!

Originally posted by howardgee
"I absolutely agree that belief in God cannot be based on wishful thinking and emotion."

So you say.

"True Christianity is based on an experience of the living God as a real active presence in the world through the Holy Spirit."

...but this is just wishful thinking and emotion. There is no objective proof of this "real" entity. No photos, no tap ...[text shortened]... concepts that you have been brainwashed into believing, when in fact there is nothing.

...but this is just wishful thinking and emotion. There is no objective proof of this "real" entity. No photos, no tape recordings. Nothing.HOWARDGEE

You are absolutely right , there is no objective proof and no photos or tape recordings. However , your point assumes that there are only two catagories here a)wishful thinking and emotion b) objective proof
This experience is in catagory c) a sustained experience over centuries of believers that corresponds to the words of Christ.

Originally posted by Tyto
Rot and nonsense.
You are talking purely about your personal experience. Why is your experience any more valid than a million muslims, hindus, all those (long dead) vikings etc etc. It is your opinion, nothing more.

My experience is not more valid than anyone else's experience but are you suggesting I should not be true to myself and deny this experience? The interesting thing about the Muslim and Hindu faith is that there is not really an equivalent concept as the activity of the Holy Spirit in these religions. For Muslims God is too "other" to be so involved with us as this. For Hindus and Buddhists God is not seen as being active in history in this way.

Originally posted by knightmeister
My experience is not more valid than anyone else's experience but are you suggesting I should not be true to myself and deny this experience? The interesting thing about the Muslim and Hindu faith is that there is not really an equivalent concept as the activity of the Holy Spirit in these religions. For Muslims God is too "other" to be so involved wit ...[text shortened]... us as this. For Hindus and Buddhists God is not seen as being active in history in this way.

But if your experience is as valid as those members of other faiths, you are being no more true to yourself than anyone else suffering a delusion.

Being true to yourself is not the same as something being true. You owe it to yourself to examine the evidence all around you and come to the conclusion that best fits the model.

Why do you take your belief as being something special and 'right', what more evidence do you have than a worshipper of Mithras? You must have some, otherwise you would have equal belief of all gods.

Originally posted by howardgee
Of course there is no evidence that God does not exist, just as there is no evidence that the tooth fairy does not exist.
The complete lack of evidence for either should be enough to convince any rational being that neither exists.
Your 'feelings' that God, the holy spirit and Jesus exist are no more proof of their existence than a child's feeling that tooth fairies exist!

Your 'feelings' that God, the holy spirit and Jesus exist are no more proof of their existence than a child's feeling that tooth fairies exist!
HOWARDGEE

You make the mistake of thinking I believe this is a proof for someone else or you . I am under absolutely no illusion that you would find my experience (even though shared by millions) as a "proof" of anything.

One thing I would say is that the comparison with emotion or "feelings" is misleading. The experience is more fundamental and real than that , more of a powerful sensation or presence. I do...erhem....know the difference between a "feeling" and a real experience.

I find it strange that you talk with such authority about this experience and what it may or may not signify when you obviously have not had this experience. (Have you?). You are probably using your imagination to compare it with your own experiences. But how do you know what the dickens you are talking about if you have not been in this situation?

One thing I can say with authority(because I have experienced this) is that one does think initially that you might be going a bit potty. you find yourself thinking "What the xxxx is going on here? Is this real or what? " It's miles away from the slushy emotional "feelings" you imagine in your head. And I could be brainwashing myself , but then I could also brainwash myself into thinking it wasn't real as well. You pay your money and take your pick.

I am entirely convinced that if you had this experience you would at least have serious food for thought. But until you have how do you know?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Your 'feelings' that God, the holy spirit and Jesus exist are no more proof of their existence than a child's feeling that tooth fairies exist!
HOWARDGEE

You make the mistake of thinking I believe this is a proof for someone else or you . I am under absolutely no illusion that you would find my experience (even though shared by millions) as a "proo ...[text shortened]... would at least have serious food for thought. But until you have how do you know?

Thus religion is nothing more than subjective, objectively unsupported nonsense.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Originally posted by Tyto
But if your experience is as valid as those members of other faiths, you are being no more true to yourself than anyone else suffering a delusion.

Being true to yourself is not the same as something being true. You owe it to yourself to examine the evidence all around you and come to the conclusion that best fits the model.

Why do you take your belief as pper of Mithras? You must have some, otherwise you would have equal belief of all gods.

But if your experience is as valid as those members of other faiths, you are being no more true to yourself than anyone else suffering a delusion.

Being true to yourself is not the same as something being true. You owe it to yourself to examine the evidence all around you and come to the conclusion that best fits the model.TYTO

You ask some good questions.But you know nothing of the countless hours spent arguing with Christians, reading books , thinking deeply about this. You really think that I haven't thought that I might be deluding myself ? The problem is that it's not as simple as that. I soon realised that it's possible to delude yourself that you are deluding yourself and talk yourself out of something you know in your heart of hearts you believe to be true. Being true to yourself is very important because you are being congruent and have integrity. No Christian should ever ask an Atheist to believe something they can't in good faith but the same is true in reverse. What is hard for Atheist is to accept that there are many many Christians who honestly hold their position for valid reasons and are being true to themselves.

I know , I once looked upon Christians as deluded and potty , so I've been there bought the T-shirt etc. You are being true to yourself at this point in time , and so am I , but for some reason you seem to want to invalidate my experience.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But if your experience is as valid as those members of other faiths, you are being no more true to yourself than anyone else suffering a delusion.

Being true to yourself is not the same as something being true. You owe it to yourself to examine the evidence all around you and come to the conclusion that best fits the model.TYTO

You ask some good ...[text shortened]... t in time , and so am I , but for some reason you seem to want to invalidate my experience.

"many Christians who honestly hold their position for valid reasons"

A mere 'feeling' is not a valid reason.

Originally posted by howardgee
Thus religion is nothing more than subjective, objectively unsupported nonsense.
Thanks for clearing that up.

What do you expect me to say? You want a reaction of some sort? You have not engaged in the points I have made or said anything of any coherence other than to dismiss out of hand. You are obssessed with the idea that the ONLY way anything can be known is through science and objectivity and that any other path is to be considered "nonsense". That's fine it's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I will leave you with one thought though . Suppose I could prove 100% objectively to you that God exists and loves you so that intellectually you would be able to work out that he loves you. Then I asked you if you wanted to exchange that intellectual "knowledge" for an intimate but powerful experience of his love reaching deep within your soul and reducing you to tears of joy so that you would now "know" personally God's love as a real experience and not just a thought. What would you do and why? Would you exchange the proof for the knowing?

Originally posted by howardgee
"many Christians who honestly hold their position for valid reasons"

A mere 'feeling' is not a valid reason.

and when have I said that my experience is the only thing which supports my faith?

Originally posted by knightmeister
They are just concepts that you have been brainwashed into believing, when in fact there is nothing.HOWARDGEE

And you have experienced what I speak of then? On what grounds do you make your assertion that Jesus is not there in the room in the form of the Holy Spirit?

You can't prove that invisible pink unicorns aren't there too, yet, hypocritically perhaps, you choose not to believe in them.

No, no, the onus is on YOU to prove God exists, the default position should be a healthy lack of belief.

Originally posted by knightmeister
and when have I said that my experience is the only thing which supports my faith?

About 10 minutes ago:

"You are absolutely right , there is no objective proof and no photos or tape recordings.
However , your point assumes that there are only two catagories here a)wishful thinking and emotion b) objective proof
This experience is in catagory c) a sustained experience over centuries of believers that corresponds to the words of Christ."

(admittedly you include the 'experience' (i.e. feelings'😉 of other similarly deluded individuals).

Originally posted by howardgee
About 10 minutes ago:

"You are absolutely right , there is no objective proof and no photos or tape recordings.
However , your point assumes that there are only two catagories here a)wishful thinking and emotion b) objective proof
This experience is in catagory c) a sustained experience over centuries of believers that corresponds to the words of Ch ...[text shortened]... edly you include the 'experience' (i.e. feelings'😉 of other similarly deluded individuals).

What are you talking about? The "no objective proof" comment was in reagrds to the subjective experience I was talking about. There's more to my belief that just this as you would know from my other posts. You need to take a little time to calm down and find a piece of leather to chew on. The chip on your shoulder is so big I can almost feel it from here. Have you had religion rammed down your throat by some fundies ? (wild guess)

Originally posted by scottishinnz
You can't prove that invisible pink unicorns aren't there too, yet, hypocritically perhaps, you choose not to believe in them.

No, no, the onus is on YOU to prove God exists, the default position should be a healthy lack of belief.

I have had no experience of pink unicorns and I know of no pink unicorn that has predicted he would be present amongst a room of pink unicorn believers.

The onus is not on me to prove God to anyone since I have not said that this is possible nor that this is what I am intending to do. What is it with you guys thinking we're always trying to prove God . Have you got OCD about it?

The only way God can become real in anyone's life is when he proves himself to the individual, so ask him not me. All I can do is fight my corner and show some coherence and integrity and rationale. I realise that this will not wash with those who are not content just to agree to differ over these things. I understand your need to portray Christians as hypocritical, brainless and deluded , you can do nothing else . You are committed to this position. It makes life really easy for you.