1. Joined
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    28 Dec '07 16:051 edit
    Jesus underwent two births. Both are significant. But the second birth of Jesus is too neglected. And the significance of it is vastly under estimated.

    The first birth of Jesus was His being born of the virgin woman Mary. Mary provided a physical body for the Logos, the living Word of God. In the first birth of Jesus God was brought into humanity.

    The second birth of Jesus was the resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection of Jesus is spoken of as a birth in the New Testament. His resurrection was His being born the Firstborn Son of God.

    Firstborn Son implies many other sons to follow. So the second birth of Jesus is the beginning of a grand collective and corporate birth of many sons of God to follow the Firstborn Son of God.

    As I said, in the first birth of Jesus He brought God into humanity. In the second birth of Jesus He brought humanity into God.

    He did not just bring one man, (Himself) into God. Rather He brought man into God. So He is refered to as "the Firstborn among many brothers".

    Most people, if they do believe in the resurrection at all, only see that Jesus "came back" from the dead. Actually His resurrection was much more than Him simply "coming back" to life. It was the birth of a whole new order of humanity. That is a man was glorified and went back to the throne of eternity wearing uplifted and glorified humanity.

    Man was deified.

    Most people, if they believe in the resurrection, only think that this was something done by Jesus for Himself alone. But His second birth in resurrection was the bringing of man into the eternal deification of humanity.

    Christ in resurrection was born the Firstborn Son of God, to be head of a new deified and glorified humanity. Before on the throne of the Divine God He only wore divinity. Today after His resurrection and ascension on the throne of God sits a Man - Jesus. And He is the Firstborn among many brothers to be matured into a collective expression of man brought into divine sonship.

    Christ uplifted and deified humanity as the Firstborn Son of God. The many sons are growing and about to follow Him in His pathway to the throne of God-Man - the Second Man, the last Adam, the Head of a new deified and Godnized humanity.
  2. Subscribermdhall
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    28 Dec '07 16:22
    To confirm, you are saying that Christ's mission was to convert Humanity from beasts to gods?

    Or deliver a message of enlightenment that all Humans contain god within themselves?

    I'm ignoring the parts about a kingdom and a throne, because they seem too obviously allegorical. Or do you really believe that you're going to die and go into some literal throne room for all eternity ran by an all-male cast made up of Yahweh, Adam, and Jesus?
  3. Joined
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    28 Dec '07 16:591 edit
    ===========================
    To confirm, you are saying that Christ's mission was to convert Humanity from beasts to gods?
    ============================


    No, that is not exactly a confirmation. The New Testament doesn't say we are beasts. We are people made in the image of God.

    Now we may have fallen into a state of sinfulness and spiritual death. However, Jesus said that we are worth more than many sparrows and worth more than the flowers of the field. So I cannot claim that the Gospel teaches us tha people are beasts.

    Now that God does desire to make us God in life and in nature, but not in His Godhead, is true. But we should not think that any save individual alone can express God. It is a collective and corporate expression of millions upon millions of sons of God which, in the end of history, is a aggregate expression of God in humanity.

    This is called the New Jerusalem in chapters 21 and 22 of Revelation. She is the mingling of divinity and humanity - man deified, man brought into "Godnization" to coin a new word.


    ========================
    Or deliver a message of enlightenment that all Humans contain god within themselves?
    ==========================



    No. I do not mean that all humans contain God. All humans are made in the image of God. So all humans contain the image of God.

    Think of a glove as being in the image of a human hand. It is made this way so that a human hand can fit into the glove. Then the two move together and the glove contains the living hand. The glove expresses the life of the hand.

    This is a limited illustration. In one sense when we look at any glove we may say "Hey, there is a hand in that glove." What we really mean is that the image of a hand is the glove's design.

    In a similar way, we see God in every man and woman. Well, we see the image of God stamped upon every person.

    For God to actually enter into the man in God's image, the man or woman must receive Christ. His redemption prepares the way for God to enter into man. And His life giving Spirit which is the resurrected Christ in a receivable form as Spirit, enters into us. Then we may say God has entered into the person.

    That is the beginning. Then we must learn to live by the Christ who has been imparted into us. Eventually His divine life will swallow up the soul and physical body of the believer.

    =============================
    I'm ignoring the parts about a kingdom and a throne, because they seem too obviously allegorical.
    =============================



    I do not mean the throne to be allegorical. I believe that somewhere, whether in this universe of above it or transcendent to it, (I do not know for sure) there is a throne with the God-man Jesus sitting upon it.

    There is a man on the throne of authority over this entire universe. A MAN, a GOD-MAN is the ultimate authority in this universe.

    =================================
    Or do you really believe that you're going to die and go into some literal throne room for all eternity ran by an all-male cast made up of Yahweh, Adam, and Jesus?
    ================================


    My hope is that I will stand before the throne before I die. I do not believe that we should only think of God as the God of the dead. That is as if we must go into the realm of death to see God.

    No God is the God of the living. He is the God of resurrection. And either in my life time or when I am resurrected I completely expect to see the throne of God.

    Now, in the age to come the Lord Jesus did say that the overcomers may sit on His throne as He also sat with His Father on His throne. To that extent that may be allegorical in that on the earth there will be many seats of govenment over the nations.

    Here we see Jesus giving His faithful servants authority over ten cities or five cities. See the parable in Luke 19:11-27 especially noticing the words in verses 16 through 19.

    See also this promise - "And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father ..." (Rev. 2:26,27)

    And there are other passages as well. But Christ comes again to not only be glorified in Himself in the heavens above our heads. He comes all the more to be glorified "in His saints" and to be marveled at in the believers who have become the faithful overcomers of degradation in His church. Right here:

    "When He comes to be glorified IN HIS SAINTS (my emphasis) and to be marveled at in all those who have believed ..." (1 Thess. 1:10)

    You see. Christ is in the saints as "the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27). And in His second He comes to be gloirifed in His saints. The mockers and the unbelievers will then marvel at the sight of the deification and glorification of those Christians.

    Some will join Christ to shepherd the nations which remain alive after the second coming of Christ.
  4. Donationbbarr
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    28 Dec '07 19:461 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]===========================
    To confirm, you are saying that Christ's mission was to convert Humanity from beasts to gods?
    ============================


    No, that is not exactly a confirmation. The New Testament doesn't say we are beasts. We are people made in the image of God.

    Now we may have fallen into a state of sinfulness and spiritua to shepherd the nations which remain alive after the second coming of Christ.[/b]
    So, suppose you make it to the actual throne room. Suppose you make the appropriate show of respect and obedience. What happens next? Are you ushered out into the hallway of Heaven? Do you have to go find an apartment? Is there anywhere to get sushi? Can't you see how absurd all this sounds?
  5. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    28 Dec '07 19:51
    Originally posted by mdhall
    Or do you really believe that you're going to die and go into some literal throne room for all eternity ran by an all-male cast made up of Yahweh, Adam, and Jesus?
    They've been practising the singing waiter/ tapdance routine for eternity. Their smiles would charm the pants off the Whiffenpoofs.
  6. Joined
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    28 Dec '07 19:531 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]===========================
    To confirm, you are saying that Christ's mission was to convert Humanity from beasts to gods?
    ============================


    No, that is not exactly a confirmation. The New Testament doesn't say we are beasts. We are people made in the image of God.

    Now we may have fallen into a state of sinfulness and spiritua to shepherd the nations which remain alive after the second coming of Christ.[/b]
    You say "the overcomers may sit on His throne".

    Do you mean those who have overcome sin?

    What happens to those who don't overcome sin?
  7. Joined
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    28 Dec '07 19:572 edits
    So, suppose you make it to the actual throne room. Suppose you make the appropriate show of respect and obedience. What happens next? Are you ushered out into the hallway of Heaven? Do you have to go find an apartment? Is there anywhere to get sushi? Can't you see how absurd all this sounds?


    No. I do not see your point at all.

    What we are told is enough for us to respond to the gospel. We are not told a lot of details merely for no other purpose than to tickle our curiosity.

    The rooms that we need to be concerned with are the rooms of our heart. We should open up chamber after chamber of our lives until Jesus comes in as "life giving Spirit" and makes His home fully in our personalities.

    Details about where you may obtain sushi in the kingdom of God I do not have. I can't tell you where the men's room might be or where you can get a shoe shine or how you may get your batteries for your cell phone.

    Notwithstanding, we are dealing with the rule of God which will practically manifest itself at the proper time.
  8. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Dec '07 19:581 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b] So, suppose you make it to the actual throne room. Suppose you make the appropriate show of respect and obedience. What happens next? Are you ushered out into the hallway of Heaven? Do you have to go find an apartment? Is there anywhere to get sushi? Can't you see how absurd all this sounds?


    No. I do not see your point at all.

    What w are dealing with the rule of God which will practically manifest itself at the proper time.[/b]
    I'm sure you'll let us know after you become a "God-Man".

    EDIT: Is "Godnized" an actual word?
  9. Donationbbarr
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    28 Dec '07 20:09
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b] So, suppose you make it to the actual throne room. Suppose you make the appropriate show of respect and obedience. What happens next? Are you ushered out into the hallway of Heaven? Do you have to go find an apartment? Is there anywhere to get sushi? Can't you see how absurd all this sounds?


    No. I do not see your point at all.

    What w ...[text shortened]... are dealing with the rule of God which will practically manifest itself at the proper time.[/b]
    The point is that you think that Heaven is the sort of place where one might reasonably inquire about sushi. You think Heaven is furnished.
  10. Joined
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    28 Dec '07 20:11
    ====================
    You say "the overcomers may sit on His throne".

    Do you mean those who have overcome sin?

    What happens to those who don't overcome sin?
    =======================


    Eternal life and eternal redemption are a gift. The gift of God meets man's need.

    Now God has a need. His need is that some who have received the gift of eternal life would live victorious lives by that grace. Since this is not a requirement to be saved from damnation, many Christians neglect this. They consider that to be saved is good enough. They have their ticket, so to speak, and they will never perish.

    But the New Testament obviously puts great emphasis on not only being saved eternally but being saved daily, hourly, moment by moment from the old way of living. We need salvation from our temper. We need salvation from our anger. We need to be saved from living out the old Adamic nature.

    If you read the Bible carefully you will see that before the eternal age covered in Revelation 21 and 22 there is the kingdom age in Rev. 20. To provide an incentive to cooperate with His indwelling grace God has established the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years.

    During that time those who lived by the indwelling grace and overcame the Adamic fallen man, will be rewarded - not as to eternity, but as to that 1,000 years.

    The defeated, who did not grow in grace will be in "the outer darkness". This is a place of discipline, of punishment, of correction and education. It cannot last more than one thousand years.


    The overcomers will be rewarded to participate in the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years. The defeated will be sent to "the outer darkness" to learn the lessons which they should have learned in the church age - the age of grace.

    The outer darkness is not eternal perdition. And it is not to be confused with Catholic Purgatory. But it a place of temporary chastizement. It cannot last more than 1,000 years.

    Perhaps it will be different lengths according to each case. But I do not know that much.

    The overcomers overcome not in their own power but by living the indwelling and victorious Jesus Who lives within them. The defeated fail to apply the Christ who has been born into them.

    Also, it is hard to be an overcomer alone. It is a matter of overcoming in the love and unity of the normal church life in community.

    Does this answer your question somewhat?
  11. Joined
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    28 Dec '07 20:16
    ==========================
    The point is that you think that Heaven is the sort of place where one might reasonably inquire about sushi. You think Heaven is furnished.



    First off I never said anything about going to heaven.

    And you're being a bit frivolous. Try this - "Seek FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness. And all these things will be added to you."

    Seek His reign in your life and His righteousness. With that God will add the necessary details too, whether that be food or shelter or clothing with enjoyment.

    He will add all things necessary for our enjoyment.
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    28 Dec '07 20:17
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I'm sure you'll let us know after you become a "God-Man".

    EDIT: Is "Godnized" an actual word?
    In Afrikaans, "God naais" has a profound and awful meaning.
  13. Subscribermdhall
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    28 Dec '07 20:19
    Jaywill,

    You're old enough to know better, so please tell me why have you chosen to read the Bible literally and not allegorically like most Christian scholars I've known?

    I could not, in good faith, pretend to believe the Bible is meant as a literal source. It's so obviously allegorical that there must be some really good reason you're taking it as such.
  14. Donationbbarr
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    28 Dec '07 20:21
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]==========================
    The point is that you think that Heaven is the sort of place where one might reasonably inquire about sushi. You think Heaven is furnished.



    First off I never said anything about going to heaven.

    And you're being a bit frivolous. Try this - "Seek FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness. And all these thing ...[text shortened]... shelter or clothing with enjoyment.

    He will add all things necessary for our enjoyment.[/b]
    Um, you're the one who claimed that somewhere in the universe there is an actual chair with God sitting on it. Is the chair ever replaced? Does it have a cushion on it?
  15. Joined
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    28 Dec '07 20:301 edit
    Originally posted by mdhall
    Jaywill,

    You're old enough to know better, so please tell me why have you chosen to read the Bible literally and not allegorically like most Christian scholars I've known?

    I could not, in good faith, pretend to believe the Bible is meant as a literal source. It's so obviously allegorical that there must be some really good reason you're taking it as such.
    Now hold on mdhall.

    There are allegories in the Bible. There are parables in the Bible. There is poetry in the Bible too.

    There are straight history in the Bible meant to be understood liturally.

    There are historical events in the Bible involving names of people and places which have allegorical ssignificance under God's prodidence.

    For example: The jews asked for the release of Barabbas and had Jesus Crucified. If I recall correctly Barabbas means "son of father". So the historical irony is that they release "son of father" and crucified Jesus the Son of the Father.

    Though I cannot recall where it can be proved but I think Barabbas's first name was Jesus too. That would mean that they released Jesus the son of father and had crucified Jesus the Son of the Father.

    So God, Who is sovereign over all, has hidden allegorical names in historically real events.

    Now you ask about my reading. My reading seeks to discriminate between WHEN I am to understand allegorically and WHEN I am to understand liturally. It is not an either / or proposition.

    The book of Revelation is heavily laden with symbolism. It takes a long time and experience and fellowship with others who have spent a long time to study, to know when we are to understand liturally, and when we are to understand symbolically.

    I assure you. I can expound on more symbolism and allegorical significances in the Bible than you expect. It is not an either / or matter. It is a matter of when and how to understand something and even when both modes are working together in the same passage.

    I usually have a good reason for WHY I understand something liturally or WHY I understand something allegorically.
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