Originally posted by DeepThought
I'm a little wary of drawing any conclusions from the first quote. You seem to want to connect the Catholic Church with ideological support for high feudalism. The Dark Ages and early medieval (~450 AD to ~1200 AD) societies had manorial production with chattel slavery - pretty much as was practiced in ancient Rome. The later 'high feudal' era had ser ...[text shortened]... ms to tend to confirm the thesis that the Catholic Church was ideologically wedded to feudalism.
I have trouble pinning down where your argument lies. I am sure that is my own failing.
What I was doing was pointing out to Whodey that he needs to think more carefully about the sweeping claims he makes about the social and economic impact of Christianity in history - it would help if he actually checked out some history.
Prior to the Reformation, I am not sure how useful it is to talk of "the Catholic Church" within Europe. The various sectarian divisions arising from the Reformation entailed a divison within what was previously just The Church and one of the points to make clear is that all those different Christian groupings shared common belief systems and appealed to common sources for most concerns. This was certainly the case for economic and social morality.
Nor was "The Church" of the Middle Ages monolithic in its values, any more than the ideas of the Reformation were highly original or necessarily without precedent. To quote Tawney (page 31)
To select from so immense a sea of ideas about society and religion only the specimens that fit the meshes of one’s own small net and to label them ‘medieval thought,’ is to beg all questions. Ideas have a pedigree which, if realized, would often embarrass their exponents. The day has long since passed when it could be suggested that only one-half of modern Christianity had its roots in medieval religion. There is a medieval Puritanism and Rationalism as well as a medieval Catholicism.
Contrary to what you imply, the abolition of serfdom was not a product of religious arguments - certainly not about the human rights of individuals - anywhere including in Protestant England, and the English - like the Dutch - had no qualms about their intensive involvement in the slave trade alongside or in competition with Spain and Portugal. All the evidence suggests that religion works alongside and as a part of a wider ideology. It is not realistic to distinguish cause and effect, chicken and egg, in the way somone like Whodey would like.
It was not that laymen were unnaturally righteous; it was not that the Church was all-powerful… It was that the facts of the economic situation imposed themselves irresistibly on both. In reality there was no sharp collision between the doctrine of the church and the public policy of the world of business – its individual practice was, of course, another matter – because both were formed by the same environment and accepted the same broad assumptions as to social expediency.
[Tawney p50]