The Spirituality or Non Spirituality Book List

I can assure you I wasn't angry. Sometimes I capitalize words to draw emphasis, but it takes a lot more than you've got to make me angry, tel.
Give us a break, Dar.

I've never said child rape was acceptable behavior, or even not worthy of punishment. Of course it deserves punishment, and the punishment will be received, just not on your time table.

Oh no. You simply have argued that it is better to have a world with it than without it. It's terrible that you can't do without such a horrific action.

In a world with sex, and with contact between adults and children, how do you propose to end the possiblity of child rape?

I did that in my post. You never addressed it. Yet another display of willful ignorance.

You've not given a process, merely a product, and that is worthy of condemnation.

A falsehood.

It is up to adults, not God, to end child rape

Your God is the first cause of the whole mess.

Some people use their [b]complete (not the half measure you propose) free will for evil.[/b]

This 'complete' free will thing has become a favorite pet of yours lately. Care to give a precise definition?


You've yet to provide proof of this "sexual bondage" or "genocide".

So far, I've given about as much proof of it as you have of the enormous evidence of the truth of the Bible. I've said over and over that its in Deut. Do you know where that is? Its right after Numbers and just before Judges.

Well since you can't be compelled to read the Bible yourself, here it is.

genocide (one of many examples just from this book alone):
7:1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

slavery and sexual bondage:
"20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Of course in the book of Numbers chapter 31 we have the story of the Midianites where Moses under the authority of God sanctions sexual bondage in verses 15-18, "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Fair enough? You'll have to read the rest of the Bible on your own.

The modern day US has better ways to deal with prisoners of war rather than death or slavery" is weak and baseless. The Israelites in 2500 BC weren't modern day Americans. They were a nomadic society who had themselves just come out of slavery, and a work force (that you conveniantly forget to mention is [b]freed every 7 years) made up of only prisoners of war was a good way to stay alive. [/b]

Not so weak and baseless if you figure your God is the source of an "objective morality." Is slavery and a sexual bondage wrong or is it right? If there are more moral ways to deal with POW's then God surely knew of them. Our Geneva Conventions demonstrate that such better moral ways exist. I don't know why you continue to defend such heinous institutions. Shall we tack slavery onto the list?

And of course there were laws put in place by God to prevent abuse of slaves. It could in no way be compared to the slavery of pre-Civil War America.

A preemptive strike! Slavery is evil period. Most of the slaves in the pre-War South were not "abused" in the sense you describe. They were certainly abused however in the sense of being robbed a natural freedom. The Israelites also engaged in this immoral practice with the blessing of your god.

I will say to that that it was neither "good" nor "bad", it was a way of life. It helped the Israelites survive and it provided an alternative to death for prisoners of war (defensive wars).

Slavery is neither good nor bad? Oh this must go on your list of atrocities. Is your god subject to the customs of man or are his laws eternal? Either slavery is wrong or it is not. God does not change truth for the whims of man.
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originally posted by telerion
Let's be honest. You don't believe anyone who does not love your god before they die will love him after they die. In your eyes and the eyes of your make-believe god, Hitler is the same as every other hell-bound human.

immediate, unedited response from Darfius
Yep.
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Sounds pretty clear to me.

Hitler will suffer more due to his worse moral depravity.

More extra-Biblical heresy from the mouth of Darfius.

You misrepresent what I say again! I said that the story probably had a grain of truth to it, based on solid Biblical and extra-Biblical evidence.

We'll let everyone decide what you had to say for themselves.
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=21781

Instead they cling to literal, out of context interpretations when it suits them.

Well, literary neophyte, you have mastered one literary technique: irony.

Psychotherapy! Well at least you've finally come and admitted you think Christians are crazy, tel, thank you.

Please don't drag other xtians down with you by generalizing. I was speaking of you specifically.

And of course I've graduated high school, so I have offically learned "something".

That must have been quite an accomplishment for you. Yes, I concede you must have learned "something."

I don't just doubt it, I confidently state that you weren't.

From this I can confidently state that if the Bible is true then you must be under the influence of the devil because I know your statement is a falsehood. He is the Father of Lies remember.

If by "warped" you mean "Biblically-based", then I would say that provides more proof that you were never born-again.

By warped I mean justifying slavery, child rape, genocide, alien landings, and the existence of titans.

it sounds like you went to some sort of charismatic church, and my opinion of them is less than awe inspiring. It sounds like your "change of mind" was to dismiss frauds as frauds,

You're gonna be awefully lonely up there being the only "True Christian" in heaven.


I'd like to see record of this. In my records, I see no evidence of this. You're either mistaken or lying as of now.

Hmm . . . looks like the records don't go back far enough anymore.
Oh well. If you need a reminder to keep your promises, then I guess you're free of it.

As far as showing "hatred", we have radically different views of hatred.

Well I see justifying child rape, slavery, and genocide as "hatred." As far as I can tell from your posts these things are sometimes "goodness" to you. So maybe they are radically different.

I accept your abuse and insults daily, and respond with Biblical answers.

Edit that to say extra-Biblical answers. Besides I only mock your unbounded arrogance.

My mistake, I thought you were older. Still quite some time. And with such resolve!

Thank you for acknowledging a mistake. Is three years really "quite some time"? Or were you referring to the 17 years that I was a "True Christian" TM?

Any Christians that claims to have saved a soul is heretical.

You'll notice that I didn't claimed to have saved souls. You may have been somewhere within ear shot when souls were saved.

I'm saying you were never a missionary.

Falsehood. Perhaps from the "Angel of Light"?

But I do know you were never willing to be used.

Falsehood. You have no clue. Yet another lie from the Evil One?

I have no doubt God may have used you, I'm just saying you were never a willing participant, more like a condescending elitist.

Falsehood number 4 or is it 5?

This cannot be the fruit of a "True Christian." Throw it into the compost!

You know nothing of my fruit. All you know is that I don't agree with you, so I must be a ....

Actually, it was all the Hitler stuff, child rape, slavery, genocide, and telling everyone and their mother they're going to hell because you know what the universe is for and where it is going. Oh and the bit about the titans and UFO's helped solidify my opinion.

dang... thats a long post.... hmmm..

id have to say Drawing Down the Moon...

Originally posted by bbarr
Evidential arguments from evil, where the evil in question is natural evil (i.e., not moral evil), show pretty clearly that it is highly unlikely that any entity with the three 'big O's' exists (although it is possible). The bullets reasonable theists have to bite in response to this form of argument are immense.

What a creative way to say No.

Unless biting immense bullets is epistemically incompatible with rationality, in which case you have formed a very creative Yes.

I guess there is little chance of this returning to a "book list", eh? Isn't there enough threads in here to have the same arguement over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
What a creative way to say No.

Unless biting immense bullets is epistemically incompatible with rationality, in which case you have formed a very creative Yes.

That was meant to be a 'yes'. The gyrations the theist must go through to salvage their position are absurd, and they are left claiming things for which there is absolutely no evidence, and which there is abundant evidence against (e.g., like this is the 'best of all possible worlds'😉.

Originally posted by bbarr
That was meant to be a 'yes'. The gyrations the theist must go through to salvage their position are absurd, and they are left claiming things for which there is absolutely no evidence, and which there is abundant evidence against (e.g., like this is the 'best of all possible worlds'😉.

Thanks for the clarification. I understand that the author claims otherwise, which added to my confusion about your response, especially since you listed the book as one of the most influential for you.

Perhaps the most spiritually influencial book I've read is Stephen King's The Stand.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Thanks for the clarification. I understand that the author claims otherwise, which added to my confusion about your response, especially since you listed the book as one of the most influential for you.

Perhaps the most spiritually influencial book I've read is Stephen King's The Stand.

Wow Scribs! I'm both surprised and impressed. The Stand? I'm assuming you mean the original 1200+ page one and not the abridged one, right? I really enjoyed the book as well but I didn't find it exceptionally spiritual. I thought the ABC mini series of it was horrific.

Perhaps I need to read it again? It has been a long time.

Originally posted by Joe Fist
Wow Scribs! I'm both surprised and impressed. The Stand? I'm assuming you mean the original 1200+ page one and not the abridged one, right? I really enjoyed the book as well but I didn't find it exceptionally spiritual. I thought the ABC mini series of it was horrific.

Perhaps I need to read it again? It has been a long time.

Read it again.

Originally posted by Joe Fist

For me, right now it has to be "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" and I have not completely finished the book. I am actually reading it on audiocassette while I drive and I have started over several times. It's kind of heady for me but what has rang true throughout is how nothing in reality so far is as it seems. It questions everything we perceive as "granted" and I tend to gravitate towards that type of subject matter...

I must admit I've tried to read this book a couple of time but it never seemed to manage to keep my interest.

Another famous Zen Book is:- Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugene Herrigel.

I've read one of the Celestine Prophecy books by James Redfield but much prefer The Peaceful Warrior series by D Millman. Also I quite enjoyed The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho.

However my top three to recommend would be

Buddhism Plain & Simple by Steve Hagen, the best & clearest buddhism book that I have come across.

Lessons from the art of Juggling by M J Gelb & T Buzan, using juggling as a metaphor to learn anything in life.

Aikido in Everyday Life by T. Dobson & V Miller, on conflict management, slightly dated style of writing but this book just blew my mind away when I read it (but then again I am an Aikidokaholic)

Originally posted by Jay Peatea
I must admit I've tried to read this book a couple of time but it never seemed to manage to keep my interest.

Another famous Zen Book is:- Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugene Herrigel.

I've read one of the Celestine Prophecy books by James Redfield but much prefer The Peaceful Warrior series by D Millman. Also I quite enjoyed The Alchemist by Paul ...[text shortened]... ting but this book just blew my mind away when I read it (but then again I am an Aikidokaholic)

Thanks Jay,

I also admit I've gotten lost in the Motorcycle book myself but I have enjoyed what I have read (heard). I am interested to check out the other books you have mentioned. I seem to be somewhat more drawn to Buddhism simply because it seems so much more introspective than other stuff I have read.

Ok no more Darfius rants in this thread. I'll quit hijacking things. For me it seems debating with him is a bit like whiskey for a recovering alcoholic. Just one little sip looks safe enough but then I find myself up at 4 am with loads of real work to do.

Books . . . books . . . yes I suppose I've read some. Like Rob, The Case Against God was big for me. James Gleich's Chaos was big. Rekindled a love for math and science.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Thanks for the clarification. I understand that the author claims otherwise, which added to my confusion about your response, especially since you listed the book as one of the most influential for you.

Perhaps the most spiritually influencial book I've read is Stephen King's The Stand.

Seing somebody as smart as Plantinga fail again and again is an informative experience.

My wording was unclear. "It" refers to the Bible, not Christianity.

Oh, I see.

I refer to things like claims of humans living for almost a thousand years,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4003063.stm

the claims that some make that counting back generations gives an age for the Earth of ~6000 years,

That's a literal interpretation of the King James Version of the Bible, a mistake I used to make. The Hebrew is much more clear, and an old earth is clear.

the claim that Eve was made from Adam's rib,

It is inconceivable that an omnipotent God put Adam to sleep, removed his rib, and sped up cellular regrowth into the form of a woman?

a talking snake,

Satan possessed the snake. If God is real, then so is Satan, which also explains the high level of evil in the world and Hitler's obsession with killing Jews.

people running around in a flame made to incinerate them,

Those men were being unfairly killed and they were being killed for defending their faith in God to the death. God was proud of them and spared their lives, which also served a double purpose of getting Nebuchadnezzer to respect the Jews more.

the earth being created before light,

The Hebrew is clearer. The earth was created after the stars (including sun), but no significant light reached the surface due to the thick clouds present in early earth until God parted the clouds.

and light being separated from darkness after both of these

Yes. Also known as the earth rotating and causing 'day' and 'night'.

and only after all this were the "lights in the sky" (Sun, stars, Moon) created,

I beg you to stop making the same mistake I made and basing your conclusions on the King James Version.

that "everything that creeps on the ground", cattle, and "beasts of the earth" were created after birds,

What? Mammals were created after birds. "Everything that creeps on the ground" refers to rodents. "Beats of the earth" refers to predatory mammals.

plants (as advanced as fruit bearing trees) being created before the Sun and stars,

The sun and stars were a part of the "heavens". Apparently plants as advanced as fruit bearing found a natural process to exist without significant sunlight until God parted the clouds.

the Earth rests on pillars,

The "foundation of the earth" refers to its formation. It does not suggest the earth rest on literal pillars, in fact as we see in Job 26:7...

"He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing"

The Bible states the earth is hanging in empty space, which it is.

the sun and moon stood still,

Yes, it says the sun stood still in the sky. If God stopped the Earth's rotation, the sun would indeed stand still in the sky.

the sun and moon went backwards upon Isaiah's command,

I'd need to see this verse. Don't remember it.

rainbows did not exist before Noah's flood,

The rainbow always existed when it rained. That was just when God announced it represented His promise not to flood the earth again.

plants and animals were created after humans,

That's false. Genesis 2 simply retells Genesis 1 in detail, a common habit in the Bible. Much like Jesus explained His parables to the disciples.

snakes eating dust,

Snakes undoubtedly get a little dust on their tongues when it flicks out, since there forced to crawl on their stomach.

hares chewing cuds,

I'm not positive, but I was under the impression that hares eat vegetation, crap it out in pellets and eat it again.

there are fowls that creep on four legs,

The Hebrew word for "fowl" means "beasts covered with feathers or beasts covered with wings". Insects creeped on "four legs" (on the ground) and had wings.

rods turning into snakes,

Yes, God did that to get the Pharaoh to respect Moses, who was attempting to free his people from Egyptian bondage.

fire breathing dragons exist,

Please cite the verse.

pheonixes

Please cite the verse.

and four winged, four faced things with straight feet existed

Please cite the verse.

...I am sure I could find more if I took the time.

Please do. I hope I can clear some more things up for you.