1. Standard membersonship
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    10 Jul '14 21:191 edit
    The book being examined in titled " The Clear Scriptural Revelation Concerning [EDITED] the Triune God "

    I will include the whole book with some of my own observations in response to concerns voiced by people who say Witness Lee was teaching falsly about God.

    Please wait until I finish the whole short booklet before comments.

    This will take a number of posts. Sorry.

    In this message every point presented is from the pure Word of God.

    Let us first go to Isaiah 9:6, “Unto us a child is born.” Who is this child? It is Jesus. Where is this child born? In the manger at Bethlehem. “Unto us a son is given.” Who is this son? It is Jesus. Whose son is He? He is God’s Son. God so loved the world that He gave us His only begotten Son. Not only is a child born to us, but a son is also given to us. God gives His Son to us.

    Let us go on. “And His name shall be called Wonderful.” Why is He called Wonderful? Because He is not simple. It is not easy to understand Him, nor can we fully understand Him. He is wonderful. So His first name or first title here is Wonderful. Anything easy to understand is not wonderful. But anything you cannot understand thoroughly, you would have to call Wonderful!


    Notice the firstly, Witness Lee gives us head up that this matter of explaining Isaiah 9:6 is not going to be EASY. And it has never been.

    The conclusion of this paragraph warns the reader of the mysterious nature of God revealed in Isaiah 9:6

    " He is wonderful. So His first name or first title here is Wonderful. Anything easy to understand is not wonderful. But anything you cannot understand thoroughly, you would have to call Wonderful! "
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    10 Jul '14 21:22
    Continuing Witness Lee says

    Next, He is called Counsellor. The Lord Jesus is the best Counsellor. Thirdly, He is called the Mighty God. We all must realize that the child by the name of Jesus, who was born in the manger at Bethlehem, was the Mighty God. Do you believe this? All the Jewish people do not believe this. They do not believe that that little Jesus is the Mighty God. If they would believe it, they would immediately become real Christians. I believe it! My God is Jesus! My God is that little child. That little child who was born of Mary in that manger at Bethlehem is my Mighty God!


    I don't think anything here needs discussion yet. Orthodox Christians hold that the Mighty God became incarnated.

    Moving down.
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    10 Jul '14 21:30
    Witness Lee continues:

    Fourthly, He is called the Everlasting Father. The Son who is given to us is called “the Everlasting Father.” Is He the Son or the Father? If you believe that that child born to us is the Mighty God, you have to believe that the Son given to us is the Everlasting Father.


    Lee has already warned us that anyone called "Wonderful" is not going to be easy to fully comprehend.

    Now in this paragraph he firstly shows that if we accept that the child is the Mighty God then we should also accept that the Son if the Eternal Father.


    Two lines are here. One line says the child is the Mighty God. And the other line says the Son is the Everlasting Father. If you believe the first line, you must believe the second. Some believe the first, but they do not believe the second.


    Lee is emphasizing that consistency is necessary in interpreting this difficult passage.


    Do you believe the Holy Bible word by word? If you do, read Isaiah 9:6 again. The first line says a child born to us is the Mighty God. Then this same verse has a second line that says a Son is given to us and this Son is called “The Everlasting Father.” Do you believe these two lines? Then you have to admit that just as the child is the Mighty God, so in the same way the Son is the Everlasting Father. To say the Son is the Father is according to the pure Word of God.


    It is logical. And attempts to take one utterance but reject the other are not reliable. If the child is called Mighty God then the Son is called Eternal Father.


    Some Christians do not believe the whole verse of Isaiah 9:6. They believe only half. They believe that the child is the Mighty God, but they do not believe the Son is the Father. But if they ask me how the Son could be the Father, I would turn the question to them: How could the child be God?


    This is a excellent point. Is it any EASIER to believe that the Mighty God of the universe spent nine months in the womb of a woman virgin being born, than it is to believe that the Son could be called Eternal Father.

    Both revelations require faith in the miraculous and the "Wonderful".
    Why some critics seem to think it is more logical to believe the God was a baby in the womb of a woman than the Father became the Son is hard to imagine.

    Both truths are astounding. Don't you think so?


    If they would ask how one could be two, I would ask them the same thing. This is Wonderful! The One is really two! He is the Son as well as the Father!
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    10 Jul '14 21:36
    Witness Lee continues on this short message about the triune God.

    Now turn to John 14:8, 9: “Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?”


    One might well think that the Lord Jesus had a copy of Isaiah opened up right before Himself and Phillip.


    This word indicates clearly that the Son is the Father. Yet some twist this word saying the Son is not the Father, but the representative of the Father. This is twisting.


    Don't you think that Jesus was trying in this occasion, if not in some others, to get the disciple to understand that He was the Father, astoundingly, virtually, miraculously whether we can comprehend HOW God can do this or NOT.

    "Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known ...... ME ... Phillip."

    Did you ever really think about that? Witness Lee accurately points out that the request to SEE the Father was met by Jesus's explanation that to SEE Him was to SEE the Father.

    But didn't Isaiah 9:6 give us this truth centuries before ? Yes he did.


    If you read the context without any twisting, you can realize the Son was the Father there. Philip asked the Son to show him the Father. The Son was surprised, saying, “I have been with you such a long time and you have seen me. Since you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” Here we may say to Philip, “Haven’t you read Isaiah 9:6? It tells you that the Son is the Father. Since He is here, why do you ask Him to show you the Father? He is the Father.” So, He said, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).
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    10 Jul '14 21:42
    The book continues with spaeking on Second Cor. 3:17

    There is still one more title in Isaiah 9:6 The fifth title is the Prince of Peace. In this verse there are seven titles. He is a child, He is a Son, He is Wonderful, He is the Counsellor, He is the Mighty God, He is the Everlasting Father, and He is the Prince of Peace. Just in one verse He is seven items. Wonderful!

    Now let us turn to 2 Corinthians 3:17, “Now the Lord is that Spirit.” Who is the Lord here? No doubt it is Jesus. And who is the Spirit? The Holy Spirit. You cannot have another Spirit other than the Holy Spirit. The Lord here is Jesus and the Spirit here is the Holy Spirit. So here the Bible says, “Now the Lord is that Spirit.” To say that the Lord Jesus is the Spirit is absolutely scriptural! Second Corinthians 3:17 says, that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit.


    It is scriptural, Witness Lee says, to say what the Bible says there about the Lord being the Spirit. I agree.

    Is it easy to explain by our limited minds and limited human language? No. But we can believe and experience that the Lord Jesus is indeed the Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

    Witness Lee was very concerned about the experience of Christians. Without experience God cannot fulfill His purpose in building the church.

    Now let us go on to 1 Corinthians 15:45, “The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit” (American Standard Version). Who was the last Adam? Jesus. Who is the life-giving Spirit? The Holy Spirit. Beside the Holy Spirit there is no other spirit that gives life. So this verse clearly tells us that Jesus, who is called in the Bible the last Adam, became the life-giving Spirit. Hence, to say that the Lord Jesus is also the Holy Spirit is according to the Bible’s clear revelation.

    Therefore, it is clear: The Lord Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, and He is the very God. He is also the Lord. He is the Father, the Son, the Spirit, the Mighty God, and the Lord.


    And why not? We should say "AMEN" to the pure word of the Bible. There is a blessing in trusting it.
  6. Standard membersonship
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    10 Jul '14 21:473 edits
    Now Witness Lee explains that the use of the word "Persons" is sometimes objected to.

    I think the operative word there is sometimes. In other words do not make a major case to insist on the usage of the word "Person" as if no other way of speaking of the Three of Father - Son - Holy Spirit will do.

    We continue with Matthew 28:19, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Gk.). Is the name of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit singular or plural? It is singular. It is three Persons with one name. It is three in one. It is difficult for us to explain adequately because we are short of utterance.

    W. Griffith Thomas, who is famous for his exposition on Romans, in his book, The Principle of Theology, says, “The term, ‘Person’ is also sometimes objected to. Like all human language, it is liable to be accused of inadequacy and even positive error. It certainly must not be pressed too far or it will lead to tritheism…while we are compelled to use terms like ‘substance’ and ‘Person’, we are not to think of them as identical with what we understand as human substance and personality….The truth and experience of the Trinity is not dependent upon theological terminology.”


    [my emphasis]

    Witness Lee is pointing out that a scholar of the New Testament raises the objection concerning the occasional misunderstandings that can arise upon insistence on "Person" in the explanation of the mystery of God.

    Witness Lee was saying what Griffith Thomas said at one time.

    " We," including Witness Lee himself, are short of utterance to explain the mystery of God's being.

    Witness Lee wrote:

    It is difficult for us to explain adequately because we are short of utterance.
  7. Standard membersonship
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    10 Jul '14 21:54
    Following we have Witness Lee say this:

    The Father, Son, and Spirit are one God, not three Gods. But, deep within some Christians they consider the Father, Son, and Spirit as three Gods. Some even clearly say this. But to say the Father, Son, and Spirit are three Gods is absolutely heretical, because the Bible tells us that God is uniquely one. First Corinthians 8:4 says, “There is none other God but one.” Isaiah 45:5 says, “I am the Lord… there is no God beside me.”


    Notice that Witness Lee said that it was an error to speak of what? ... "Three Gods" .

    At least in this message I do not see him say it is an error to speak of three "Persons". Rather he quoted Griffith Thomas that the word Person cannot be pushed too far.

    What is error is to speak of three Gods.

    He wrote:

    The Father, Son, and Spirit are one God, not three Gods. But, deep within some Christians they consider the Father, Son, and Spirit as three Gods.


    I think that is true.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    10 Jul '14 21:581 edit
    Towards the end of this little book Witness Lee comes to his real concern. That is God living WITHIN the Christians. This is his ever present burden that Christians would have deeper experience of God as living in them.

    Now let us read Ephesians 4:6, “One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” I would call your attention to “in you all.” God the Father is in you and in us all.

    Then we go to Colossians 1:27, “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” Christ is the hope of glory, who is right now in you. God the Father is in you and Christ the Son is also in you.

    Now turn to John 14:17, “The Spirit of truth… shall be in you.” The Spirit is also in you.

    It is so clear that the Father is in us, the Son is in us, and the Spirit is also in us. Then according to your experience, how many are in you? One or three? One! Yes, one, not three. According to letters, it seems there are three, but according to our experience, there is one. This is because the Father, the Son and the Spirit are one.


    The whole point of the book is to encourage us Christians about this mysterious God living in us. Father, Son, Holy Spirit dispensed into us.

    This dispensing is called God's administration or God's ekoinomia - God's economy.
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    10 Jul '14 22:02
    Last two paragraphs:

    Now turn to Revelation 1:4, “…and from the seven Spirits.” Note seven Spirits. Now read chapter 4:5, “There were seven lamps of fire…which are the seven Spirits of God.” And then chapter 5:6, “…stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God.” Who are the seven Spirits of God? The Holy Spirit. But is the Holy Spirit one or seven? One! Why then does it say here seven Spirits? We should not understand the Bible according to our mentality. Is the Holy Spirit one or seven? The Holy Spirit is one, yet He is called “the seven Spirits.”

    We can never understand the divine mystery of the Trinity and the Person of Christ adequately with our mentality. We are foolish to think that we understand fully. No one understands fully. The matter of the Person of Christ has troubled all the Christian teachers throughout the past nineteen centuries. From the first century the matter of Christology has bothered the Church and divided the Church. No one can explain it accurately, since we do not have adequate understanding in our mentality. There is no language capable of expressing what the Trinity is. We can only state it according to the Bible.


    When Witness Lee speaks of the difficulty of expressing God's nature he includes himself.

    He did not say "All the other Bible teachers cannot express it. But I CAN."

    Look again at the essence of his conclusion.

    From the first century the matter of Christology has bothered the Church and divided the Church. No one can explain it accurately, since we do not have adequate understanding in our mentality. There is no language capable of expressing what the Trinity is. We can only state it according to the Bible.


    However, by following the pure utterance of the Bible we can enrich our faith about God dwelling IN US, in His astounding mysterious nature.

    His indwelling is for our enjoyment and experience and for God to accomplish His economy.

    This is healthy Christian teaching.
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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  11. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Jul '14 04:06
    Originally posted by Rajk999
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    11 Jul '14 06:05
    Witness Lee, Watchman Nee and the way of the Samurai

    They were invisible, of course. They could be, whenever they wished.

    The attack came swiftly and without warning. Witness Lee's nunchucks cracked the ribs of the Emperor's right guardsman. Watchman Nee, in unison, brought his gleaming Kitana blade across the jugular vein of the left guardsman, after a swift knee [where did you think he got that name?] lifted the guardsman's chin and exposed a crack in the armor.

    Less swiftly, the emperor realized whom he was dealing with.

    "What do you want?" he begged, shaking amidst a pool of his own sweat.

    [The sound of their answer came about 2 seconds after their mouths moved.]

    "We serve no one but Jesus. He is our only Emperor. All others are pretenders to HIS throne, and must DIE!!!!"

    The Emperor, who was surprisingly spry for such a large man, sped towards the nearest exist. But Watchman Nee cupped his hands together, so Witness Lee could use them as a step. Nee then flung Lee perfectly into the Emperor's path, blocking his escape.

    The last thing the Emperor saw before he died were the engravings on the 4 ends of the nunchucks, which read....
    WWJD?
    ***THE END***
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    11 Jul '14 06:17
    Originally posted by sonship
    Witness Lee continues on this short message about the triune God.

    Now turn to John 14:8, 9: “Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? ...[text shortened]... ou the Father? He is the Father.” So, He said, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).
    I wonder if we believe the same thing after reading this post. Especially the call out about Jesus talking to Philip. It was also somewhere said of Jesus by The Lord, "I will lay bare my right arm". This I believe is Christ. Right arm is strength and authority.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Jul '14 06:21
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    [b]Witness Lee, Watchman Nee and the way of the Samurai

    They were invisible, of course. They could be, whenever they wished.

    The attack came swiftly and without warning. Witness Lee's nunchucks cracked the ribs of the Emperor's right guardsman. Watchman Nee, in unison, brought his gleaming Kitana blade across the jugular vein of the left gua ...[text shortened]... e the engravings on the 4 ends of the nunchucks, which read....
    WWJD?
    ***THE END***[/b]
    I Love It.
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    11 Jul '14 11:021 edit
    Very funny fellas. Now a short personal testimony from Witness Lee as to how he began to serve God full time and associate with Watchman Nee.

    1.) Giving up full time work to work for God:

    A PERSONAL TESTIMONY

    In 1933 I was burdened by the Lord, even forced by Him, to give up my job and to serve Him full-time. I had not studied in a Bible school or seminary. At the time I was working in a corporation. When the Lord was dealing with me about giving up my job, I could not eat or sleep well for three weeks. To serve the Lord full-time required an extreme exercise of my faith, and nothing in my environment favored this decision. I simply did not know how I would care for my living. Eventually, however, I had no choice except to quit my job. After I made this decision, I received a brief note from Brother Nee. In this note Brother Nee said, "Brother Witness, as to your future, I feel that you have to serve the Lord with your full time. How do you feel about it? May the Lord lead you." This note, dated August 17, 1933, the middle of my three-week struggle with the Lord, was a strong confirmation. I had resigned from the corporation, but I had little faith; I was still doubting that I had made the right decision. At that very juncture, that note arrived from Brother Nee. After I read it, I said, "The Lord willing, I will visit this brother and find out why he wrote that note to me at that time."


    2.) Confirming that God had actually called him.

    With this purpose in mind, I went to Shanghai to visit Brother Nee, and he received me as his guest. I stayed with him for several months and I received great help from him. Of course, my first question was why he had written that note on August 17. He told me that as his boat was sailing back to China on the Mediterranean Sea and he was sitting silently in his cabin alone, he was burdened to pray for the Lord's move in China. While he was praying, the Lord pointed out to him that he had to write me that note. Then I told him that the date on which he wrote this note was in the middle of my three-week struggle with the Lord. This report confirmed for Brother Nee that what he had written was absolutely right. Through this note he and I were builded together even more than before. We were deeply assured that the Lord had put us together. From this time, he treated me as a new learner, and I honored and respected him, my senior co-worker, as one who could perfect me.


    3.) Being helped and perfected by Watchman Nee

    Because there was not that much work for Brother Nee and me to do in the early days, I often went to him in his home for long periods of time. At these times he perfected me in many different ways. Before the Lord I can testify that we never spent any time in gossip. Brother Nee, an outstanding gift given by the Lord to perfect others, always used the time to perfect me. He certainly knew what I needed. He gave me the proper understanding of church history from the first century until the present; he shared with me the biographies of nearly all the founders of the different denominations; and he perfected me with respect to the inner life, the church life, and the Lord's move.


    4.) Being in one spiritual flow with his senior co-worker

    ONE FLOW

    One day Brother Nee told me that he and the other co-workers were burdened that I move to Shanghai with my family to stay with them and work with them. He asked me to bring this matter to the Lord. As I took the matter to the Lord and prayed about it, the Lord showed me from the book of Acts that in His move on earth there is only one flow. This flow started from Jerusalem and spread to Antioch, and from Antioch it turned to Europe. The Lord told me that for His move in China there should not be two flows or two origins. I had been burdened for north China. Before I had gone to see Brother Nee, I had conducted a thorough study on the Song of Songs in the summer of 1933. But although I was definitely burdened for north China, Brother Nee and the co-workers felt that I should move to Shanghai, stay there, and work with them. At this time the Lord showed me that I had to get into the one flow that had started from Shanghai. I saw that from Shanghai the flow would proceed to the north and to other parts of the country. Therefore, I decided to move to Shanghai and to stay there. From that time onward, I have been in the flow. I have been absolutely clear that this is the Lord's flow and His move on earth in His recovery. Using today's word, I knew that I had found Bethel.
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