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24 Nov 05
....can someone explain it? I have seen the discussions on other threads, but the explanations are unsatisfactory.
Here is what I have heard, so please don't repeat it here. God is 3 persons in one. It is referred to as God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and God the Father. They are 3 distinct entities but they are also 1??
They are co - equal....someone once explained it this way...They are like snow, ice and water.
I have also been told that if you do not accept the doctrine of the Trinity you cannot be a Christian and are doomed to eternal torment in Hell.
Even so, I consider myself a Christian but I don't believe in the Trinity. I believe in God the Father and in His son Jesus Christ and in His "gift" of holy spirit.
Furthermore, I do not see the "Trinity" in the bible, nor the word "incarnation" nor God the Son, etc.
However, I have an open mind and would accept it IF, someone can show me, and save a soul from hell.
24 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterDefending Trinitarian doctrine is a complex enterprise, and I am an infidel, so I'll not spend the needed time. However, your observation of the absence of "incarnation" is relatively simple.
....can someone explain it? I have seen the discussions on other threads, but the explanations are unsatisfactory.
Here is what I have heard, so please don't repeat it here. God is 3 persons in one. It is referred to as God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and God the Father. They are 3 distinct entities but they are also 1??
They are co - equal....some ...[text shortened]... ver, I have an open mind and would accept it IF, someone can show me, and save a soul from hell.
The word became flesh
In the beginning was the word, and the word was god, and the word was in god
John 1:1-18 is critical to notions of incarnation, and to the extension of this idea to Trinitarian doctrine.
If you've seen the movie Smoke Signals, look to the scene when Arnold Joseph is holding a basketball, and he tells Suzy, "the whole world can fit in this basketball, ... it's about faith." The author of those lines is an Indian Catholic, which he distinguishes from Roman Catholic, and he certainly employed Catholic notions of incarnation for that scene.
24 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterThink of it as this way, Although they are 3 completly different beings,(things) They are "one" in togetherness, kindve hard to explain, somewhere in the Bible it says a man and women are "one" when they get married, although they are still totaly seperate beings, they are "one" in ...Whats the word I want? Spirit? I dont know, I cant think.
....can someone explain it? I have seen the discussions on other threads, but the explanations are unsatisfactory.
Here is what I have heard, so please don't repeat it here. God is 3 persons in one. It is referred to as God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and God the Father. They are 3 distinct entities but they are also 1??
They are co - equal....some ...[text shortened]... ver, I have an open mind and would accept it IF, someone can show me, and save a soul from hell.
Im thinking that some Christians think that one is doomed to eternal torment if you think they are totaly seperate, and that they dont "work" together,
I think human beings cant comprehand what is going on, we can only guess with our feeble minds.
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24 Nov 05
Originally posted by WulebgrThank you, I have heard this before. That is "the Word became flesh"...but I find this weak. Most Trinitarians believe that the word logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most versions of John logos is capitalized and translated “Word” (some versions even write “Jesus Christ” in John 1:1). However, a study of the Greek word logos shows that it occurs more than 300 times in the New Testament, and in both the NIV and the KJV it is capitalized only 7 times (and even those versions disagree on exactly when to capitalize it). When a word that occurs more than 300 times is capitalized fewer than 10 times, it is obvious that when to capitalize and when not to capitalize is a translators’ decision based on their particular understanding of Scripture.
Defending Trinitarian doctrine is a complex enterprise, and I am an infidel, so I'll not spend the needed time. However, your observation of the absence of "incarnation" is relatively simple.
The word became flesh
In the beginning was the word, and the word was god, and the word was in god
John 1:1-18 is critical to notions of incarnation, and to t ...[text shortened]... s from Roman Catholic, and he certainly employed Catholic notions of incarnation for that scene.
As it is used throughout Scripture, logos has a very wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind like “reason,” (thus “logic” is related to logos) and the other is the expression of that reason as a “word,” “saying,” “command” etc.
With all the definitions and ways logos can be translated, how can we decide which meaning of logos to choose for any one verse? How can it be determined what the logos in John 1:1 is?
Please notice that “Jesus Christ” is not a lexical definition of logos. This verse does not say, “In the beginning was Jesus.” “The Word” is not synonymous with Jesus, or even “the Messiah.” The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God’s creative self-expression—His reason, purposes and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God’s self-expression, or communication, of Himself.
I think logos here is saying God's "plan" from the beginning (Genesis 3:15) has just been made "flesh". Actually this is later on as you have correctly asserted (John 1:14).
However, even after this, my contention is why isn't it explained simply elsewhere in the bible. After all in the Old Testament it reads..
Deut 6:4
4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
(NKJ)
Trinitarians say the members of the Trinity are co-equal....but..
John 14:28
28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
(NKJ)
See what I mean? They say Jesus is God...when He died...who raised Him?..the questions go on and on...but thanks for your help.
🙂
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24 Nov 05
Originally posted by flyUnityThank you Unity...but being a bible student, I suppose what I am looking for is biblical documentation. I do not believe that the original God - breathed writings can contradict themselves. I have a difficult time justifying the Trinity in the bible. I think it is a traditional teaching and not biblical at all. I am challenging Christians to show me in the bible where it is taught as doctrine. I assert that God is one...the Creator and there is no other. Not 3 in 1 or any such thing. I believe Jesus is His divinely "created" Son, born of a virgin. He had "limited knowledge" and Himself claimed that the Father was "greater". And I believe the holy spirit is the gift God gives at salvation.
Think of it as this way, Although they are 3 completly different beings,(things) They are "one" in togetherness, kindve hard to explain, somewhere in the Bible it says a man and women are "one" when they get married, although they are still totaly seperate beings, they are "one" in ...Whats the word I want? Spirit? I dont know, I cant think.
Im th ...[text shortened]...
I think human beings cant comprehand what is going on, we can only guess with our feeble minds.
🙂
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24 Nov 05
Originally posted by aspviper666Do you mean like Jehovah Jirah, etc.? His different names?...Agreed....He is Righteousness, Protector, Banner,Provider, etc...but it does not explain the trinity.
according to judaic principals there is but one god,but he has many different eminations,all of which are part of the whole and not apart from it.like a diamond has many facets but it is still one diamond
24 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterIs the problem that you do not understnd how, GOD could be more than on entity?
....can someone explain it? I have seen the discussions on other threads, but the explanations are unsatisfactory.
Here is what I have heard, so please don't repeat it here. God is 3 persons in one. It is referred to as God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and God the Father. They are 3 distinct entities but they are also 1??
They are co - equal....some ...[text shortened]... ver, I have an open mind and would accept it IF, someone can show me, and save a soul from hell.
24 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterThe Revelation of God as Trinity.
....can someone explain it? I have seen the discussions on other threads, but the explanations are unsatisfactory.
Here is what I have heard, so please don't repeat it here. God is 3 persons in one. It is referred to as God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and God the Father. They are 3 distinct entities but they are also 1??
They are co - equal....some ...[text shortened]... ver, I have an open mind and would accept it IF, someone can show me, and save a soul from hell.
Roman-Catholic Cathechism
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm#II
24 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterwell to me as a kabbalist the trinity is the center pillar of the tree of life
Do you mean like Jehovah Jirah, etc.? His different names?...Agreed....He is Righteousness, Protector, Banner,Provider, etc...but it does not explain the trinity.
the moon sphere of yesod which corrolates to the holy spirit
the sun(son) sphere of tiphareth which is the christ center and heart of the tree
and then kether the apex and god head
there is god the creator (god head)
god the son (jesus christ god made into flesh god incarnate)
the holy spirit (god as pure spirit...i also think it is god as a female but thats my kabalistic view)
24 Nov 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterhttp://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm#II
No, the problem is that I don't see the trinity as something supported by scripture.
I'm sure if you'll read the above section of the Roman-Catholic Cathechism you will find at least part of the information you are looking for. You'll find it in the main text and certainly in the footnotes.
24 Nov 05
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm#II
IN BRIEF
261 261 The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and of Christian life. God alone can make it known to us by revealing himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
262 The Incarnation of God's Son reveals that God is the eternal Father and that the Son is consubstantial with the Father, which means that, in the Father and with the Father the Son is one and the same God.
263 The mission of the Holy Spirit, sent by the Father in the name of the Son (Jn 14:26) and by the Son "from the Father" (Jn 15:26), reveals that, with them, the Spirit is one and the same God. "With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified" (Nicene Creed).
264 "The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father as the first principle and, by the eternal gift of this to the Son, from the communion of both the Father and the Son" (St. Augustine, De Trin. 15, 26, 47: PL 42, 1095).
265 By the grace of Baptism "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", we are called to share in the life of the Blessed Trinity, here on earth in the obscurity of faith, and after death in eternal light (cf. Paul VI, CPG § 9).
266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).
267 Inseparable in what they are, the divine persons are also inseparable in what they do. But within the single divine operation each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, especially in the divine missions of the Son's Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm#II
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24 Nov 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeMan, this is a tough read...lots of mumbo jumbo....
The Revelation of God as Trinity.
Roman-Catholic Cathechism
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm#II
The dogma of the Holy Trinity
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85
This goes round and round, making up words like...
It is above all the divine missions of the Son's Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit that show forth the properties of the divine persons.
Look...let's be simple here...yes Jesus said "I and the Father are one"...but this cannot contradict where He says "the Father is greater"...
I can understand Him being "one" with the Father...He is simply saying if you want to know what the Father is like...look at me! Jesus was just like the Father,ie. "like Father like Son"...in character....thus He could say...
John 5:19
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
(NKJ)
.. after having said, “I and my Father are one,” gives his disciples distinctly to understand that he did not mean one substance, equal in power and glory, but one only in affection and design, as clearly appears from the prayer he offers to his Father in their behalf, --“that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us,” John 17:21
The Father is called the God of Christ as he is the God of Christians. “Jesus saith unto her, ….Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God,” John 20:17.
The power which Christ possessed was, as him affirmed, given to him. “All power is given unto me,” Matt 28:18.
He positively denies himself to be the author of his miraculous works, but refers them to the Father, or the holy spirit of God. “The Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works,” John 14:10.
Jesus declares that he is not the author of his own doctrine. “My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me,” John 7:16, 17.
Jesus represents himself as having been instructed by the Father. “As my Father hath taught me, I speak these things,” John 8:28.
Jesus says “I seek not mine own glory; but I honor my Father,” John 8:49, 50.
Christ is uniformly represented in the Scriptures, not as the primary, but the intermediate, cause of all things relating to our salvation. “One God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him,” 1 Cor. 8:6.
Jesus declares, “I am not come of myself” into the world, “for I proceeded forth and came from God,” John 8:42; 7:28. Jesus knowing… that he came from God, and went to God,” John 13:3.
Jesus affirms that he had not the disposal of the highest places in his own kingdom. “To sit on my right and on my left is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father,” Matt. 20:23
Our Saviour always professed to have no will of his own, but to be ever entirely guided and governed by the will of his Heavenly Father. “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.” John 6:38.
Jesus expressly disclaims the possession of the Divine attribute of omniscience. “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but my Father only,” Matt.24:36, Mark 13:32.
Christ is said in the Scriptures to have been “tempted of the devil,” Matt. 4:1. But “God can not be tempted with evil.” James 1:13.
It is related of our Saviour, that “he continued all night in prayer to God,” Luke 6:12. Why should Christ thus pray, if he himself were God?
Jesus besought his Father to glorify him. “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thyself with the glory which I had with thee before the world was,” John 17:5. The one who prayed to God to glorify him, cannot be God.
Jesus implored that, if it were possible, the bitter cup might pass from him, adding, “Nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt,” Matt 26:39.
Jesus said, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Matt. 27:46 Can he who uttered this be the Supreme God?
Jesus never instructed his disciples to worship himself or the Holy Ghost, but the Father, and the Father only. “When ye pray, say Our Father which art in heaven,” Luke 11:2. “In that day, ye shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever ye ask of the Father in my name,” John 16:23. “The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him,” John 4:23.
It was not the practice of the Apostles to pay religious homage to Christ, but to God the Father through Christ. “I thank God through Jesus Christ,” Rom. 7:25. “To God only wise, be glory through Christ,” Rom 16:27. “I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” Eph. 3:14.
St. Peter, immediately after being filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, thus addressed the Jews: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles, and wonders, and signs which God did by him, in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain; whom God hath raised up,” Acts 2:22-24. I hear churches teach that He rose from the dead, never that "God raised" as Romans 10:9-10 states.
Scriptures affirm that “Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest, but He (glorified him) who said unto him, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee,” Heb. 5:5.
I could go on and on with truths like these...the trinity makes no sense and I still contend that scripture does not support it.
24 Nov 05
2 edits
For X to be identical to Y and Y to be identical to Z and Z to be identical to X (i.e., all be One) they have to have all their properties in common, not just one essential property in common. But clearly, in the case of the Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost do not have all their properties in common. For, if they did, how could we distinguish them?
So, unless "being One" means just sharing one essential common property--like ice, water, and stream share the same chemical constitution--then the doctrine of the Trinity cannot be correct. That is, each member of the Trinity cannot be *both* the same thing, namely, "wholly God", *and* at the same time something different, namely one or other of the three "persons of the Trinity".
I conclude that being "wholly God" must be a subordinate common property possessed by any person of the Trinity, if the concept is even to be coherent. What is incoherent cannot be true.