Originally posted by rwingettExcellent question. Their blatant disregard for the Word of God in preference of the word of men is the culprit.
This is an interesting statement. You think Catholics are largely a cult? What is it that draws you to this conclusion?
They worship Mary. God says "Thou shalt have no other god before me."
They call their priests father, which is in direct conflict with:
(Mat 23:9) "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
They have idols in their churches which is in direct conflict with the 2nd commandment.
They have books not endorsed by Jesus in their Holy Bible:
"He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” Luke 24:44
The Torah or law contains five books, Genesis-Deuteronomy; The Prophets contain eight books, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the twelve minor prophets are grouped into one book; The Writings or Kethubim contain eleven books, Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles.
They preach celibacy for the priests when that is direct contradiction of:
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28
In other words, they are a cult that embraced Jewish tradition into Christianity rather than relying only on the Word of God. To conclude, let's see what Jesus says about tradition over the Word of God:
"Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!”
Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: “ ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’”
Originally posted by WulebgrI see no praising of God specifically for the harm that came to the Indians. I see thanksgiving for food.
Okay. Here's a Protestant source from when the Pilgrims praised God for bringing measles or smallpox to the Indians, wiping out their villages, but leaving behind their corn:
"After this, the shallop being got ready, they set out again for the better discovery of this place, and the master of the ship desired to go himself. So there went some thirty men ...[text shortened]... iam Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1650bradford.html
Originally posted by DarfiusI'm sorry that I did not quote the entire book--you need to learn to read the text in the context of its creation. The Pilgrims, and the Puritans who arrived ten years later, considered the Indians heathens and devils (although they were friendly to a few for a short while). Later, their actions were more specifically geared towards perpetrating genocide in the name of their God. This basic mindset, according to Bradford's own account, was clearly evident on their first day in America.
I see no praising of God specifically for the harm that came to the Indians. I see thanksgiving for food.
It is not beside the point to observe that the current holy crusade of the United States in Iraq follows a direct line from these words of praise in 1620.
Originally posted by WulebgrHoly crusade? I was under the impression we were spreading democracy; democracy that the Iraquis dearly appreciated as evidenced by filmed footage.
I'm sorry that I did not quote the entire book--you need to learn to read the text in the context of its creation. The Pilgrims, and the Puritans who arrived ten years later, considered the Indians heathens and devils (although they were friendly to a few for a short while). Later, their actions were more specifically geared towards perpetrating genocide in ...[text shortened]... y crusade of the United States in Iraq follows a direct line from these words of praise in 1620.
By the way, yes, you'll have to provide proof of your assertions. I'm not as good as you at reading into "context" as you are, I suppose.
Originally posted by Darfius
Excellent question. Their blatant disregard for the Word of God in preference of the word of men is the culprit.
You mean when you have anger when all anger is expressly forbidden,
this is not blatant disregard?
Oh wait...you 'interpret' what it says....
RCs don't worship Mary. I have explained this a dozen times.
RCs have a developed theological interpretation for calling priests
father. Are you saying that you don't say, 'That's my Father'
when referring to your dad and that to do so is a sin?' Just like your
understanding of 'all anger' can mean 'some anger,' so can 'never
call a person father' can mean 'usually don't call a person father.'
As for idols, the commandment says:
Deuteronomy 5:8-9
You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in
the sky above or on the earth or in the waters beneath the earth;
you shall not bow down before them or worship them.
RCs do not have 'idols' in this sense. They have nothing which they
bow down before or worship in their churches or homes. They have
statues which remind them of stories. Depictions are not necessarily
idols.
Jesus never 'endorsed' any books of the OT. Nor did Jesus quote
from a several of them (like Obadiah). However, it is clear that
He and His disciples used the Septuagint which countained the very
books that you claim are not Scripture, given that 300 of the 350 of
the 'quotations from Scripture' use the Septuagint's word order and
phrasing.
The Writings or Kethubim contain eleven books, Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles.
1) Jesus never said 'the Kethubim,' He said Psalms.
2) This canon was created in last decade of the first century,
by Jews who hated Christians (indeed, they had to curse the
name of Christ at the very meeting when this canon was formed).
Priestly celibacy is an incoherent RC position, no doubt.
I will note that cults often misrepresent other groups in order to give
their cult higher status. I feel that this is what the Fundamentalist
Christian Cult is doing.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioThank you for admitting their position on priestly celibacy automatically makes them a cult.
Originally posted by Darfius
[b]Excellent question. Their blatant disregard for the Word of God in preference of the word of men is the culprit.
You mean when you have anger when all anger is expressly forbidden,
this is not blatant disregard?
Oh wait...you 'interpret' what it says....
RCs don't worship Mary. I have explained this ...[text shortened]... higher status. I feel that this is what the Fundamentalist
Christian Cult is doing.
Nemesio[/b]
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. (Philippians 4:6)
Are you claiming they never pray to Mary or dead saints? If they do, they are in direct contradiction with the Word of God.
CC (Catechism) 966: "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as QUEEN over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.' [LG 59; cf. Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus (1950): DS 3903; cf. Rev 19:16.] The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death." [Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.]
Here's a picture of the Pope and company bowing to Mary, effectively cutting your position to threads:
http://www.biblelight.net/fatima_statue.jpg
Originally posted by Darfius
Thank you for admitting their position on priestly celibacy automatically makes them a cult.
I did no such thing. If the RCC is a cult, then so too are you
in a cult. If you aren't then they aren't.
Are you claiming they never pray to Mary or dead saints? If they do, they are in direct contradiction with the Word of God.
Any RC who 'prays to Mary' is in direct violation of the Bible and the
RC church.
Your quote from the Catechism has no heresy in it; are you familiar
with Psalm 45:10-16 (Regarding the 'wife' of the King)? The RC
church interprets that, as God is Jesus's Father, Mary is His Mother,
and, as God is the King, Mary is the Queen.
Let's look at the prayer you quoted:
O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.
Mother of God: True statement for all Christians. No problem there.
your prayers: Just as you pray for me, Mary prays for you. No
problem there.
will deliver our souls from death: It would be a misinterpretation of the
Byzantine theological position to say that they believe that 'Mary
will deliver...' Only God delivers. But Mary's prayers are as influential
as your prayers. That is what this passage is saying.
By the way, the 'Byzantine Liturgy' is the Eastern Church, not the RCC,
just so you know.
As for the Pope bowing to Mary, this is not to say that he worships her;
if he does, he is violation of church teaching. However, to have
reverance for her purity and ideals is a healthy thing, for her example
through Scripture and tradition is, to use the RC word, Immaculate.
Certainly you have reverence for Sts Paul, John, Peter and James,
right? God knows what is in the Pope's heart, not you. God knows if
the Pope is worshiping her or idolizing her and will make His Judgment
accordingly. However, I would guess that, since the Pope is pretty
familiar with the teachings of his Church, that the Pope's heart is
merely reverential, that he is merely asking for Mary's prayers, just
like he asks for yours and mine.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioMary can not answer Prayers, only God can. And if someone asks Mary don't you think that God would hear it and not need to be told what the person asked for by Mary?
Originally posted by Darfius
[b]Thank you for admitting their position on priestly celibacy automatically makes them a cult.
I did no such thing. If the RCC is a cult, then so too are you
in a cult. If you aren't then they aren't.
Are you claiming they never pray to Mary or dead saints? If they do, they are in direct contradiction ...[text shortened]... that he is merely asking for Mary's prayers, just
like he asks for yours and mine.
Nemesio
I did no such thing. If the RCC is a cult, then so too are you
in a cult. If you aren't then they aren't.
I don't see how that follows, since I am in no way affiliated with their cult.
Any RC who 'prays to Mary' is in direct violation of the Bible and the
RC church.
But the RCC encourages prayer to Mary...
The present pope, John Paul II, has dedicated himself completely to Mary. During his visit to Vancouver, B.C. in 1985, the special souvenir edition of B.C. Catholic carried a full page color photo of the pope under the caption of Totus Tuus, which, in Latin, means "all yours." The following explanation was then given:
"When Karol Wojtyla [John Paul II] was consecrated bishop of Krakow by Pius XII in 1958 he took, 'Totus Tuus' (all yours) as his motto, thus presenting himself to Mary. In his first Urbi et Orbi message immediately after being elected pope he said, 'At this difficult hour, full of fear, we must turn our thoughts with filial devotion to the Virgin Mary who always lives in the midst of Christ and exists as his mother. We must repeat the words, Totus Tuus which 20 years ago were inscribed into our heart and soul.'"
Additionally, in "The Holy Father's Prayer for the Marian Year," John Paul II asks Mary to do what only God can do -- comfort, guide, strengthen, and protect "the whole of humanity ..." His prayer ends: "Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation."
Your quote from the Catechism has no heresy in it; are you familiar
with Psalm 45:10-16 (Regarding the 'wife' of the King)? The RC
church interprets that, as God is Jesus's Father, Mary is His Mother,
and, as God is the King, Mary is the Queen.
Mother of God: True statement for all Christians. No problem there.
your prayers: Just as you pray for me, Mary prays for you. No
problem there.
will deliver our souls from death: It would be a misinterpretation of the
Byzantine theological position to say that they believe that 'Mary
will deliver...' Only God delivers. But Mary's prayers are as influential
as your prayers. That is what this passage is saying.
By the way, the 'Byzantine Liturgy' is the Eastern Church, not the RCC,
just so you know.
Mary is dead. Where is the precedent in Scripture for praying to the dead instead of God?
As for the Pope bowing to Mary, this is not to say that he worships her;
if he does, he is violation of church teaching. However, to have
reverance for her purity and ideals is a healthy thing, for her example
through Scripture and tradition is, to use the RC word, Immaculate.
The present pope, John Paul II, has dedicated himself completely to Mary. During his visit to Vancouver, B.C. in 1985, the special souvenir edition of B.C. Catholic carried a full page color photo of the pope under the caption of Totus Tuus, which, in Latin, means "all yours." The following explanation was then given:
"When Karol Wojtyla [John Paul II] was consecrated bishop of Krakow by Pius XII in 1958 he took, 'Totus Tuus' (all yours) as his motto, thus presenting himself to Mary. In his first Urbi et Orbi message immediately after being elected pope he said, 'At this difficult hour, full of fear, we must turn our thoughts with filial devotion to the Virgin Mary who always lives in the midst of Christ and exists as his mother. We must repeat the words, Totus Tuus which 20 years ago were inscribed into our heart and soul.'"
Additionally, in "The Holy Father's Prayer for the Marian Year," John Paul II asks Mary to do what only God can do -- comfort, guide, strengthen, and protect "the whole of humanity ..." His prayer ends: "Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation."
Certainly you have reverence for Sts Paul, John, Peter and James,
right? God knows what is in the Pope's heart, not you. God knows if
the Pope is worshiping her or idolizing her and will make His Judgment
accordingly. However, I would guess that, since the Pope is pretty
familiar with the teachings of his Church, that the Pope's heart is
merely reverential, that he is merely asking for Mary's prayers, just
like he asks for yours and mine.
No, I don't revere any of them. I admire their faith, but not them as individuals. That is not biblical.
Originally posted by DarfiusIndeed true. I had to sit in with my mom in the Catholic Church about 3 weeks ago and they did indeed encourage praying to Mary.
[b]I did no such thing. If the RCC is a cult, then so too are you
in a cult. If you aren't then they aren't.
I don't see how that follows, since I am in no way affiliated with their cult.
Any RC who 'prays to Mary' is in direct violation of the Bible and the
RC church.
But the RCC encourages prayer to Mary...
The present pop ...[text shortened]... t revere any of them. I admire their faith, but not them as individuals. That is not biblical.[/b]
Originally posted by RBHILLMy brother, who is in Iraq, has asked for family and friends to pray for him--to intercede on his behalf. The so-called prayer to Mary that Catholics recite is similar to his request. Catholics ask Mary to intercede on their behalf.
Indeed true. I had to sit in with my mom in the Catholic Church about 3 weeks ago and they did indeed encourage praying to Mary.
If life eternal is granted to those who believe, what difference does it make whether we ask for prayers from those still living, or those living still?
Originally posted by WulebgrYou can ask for people who are living to pray for you. And they should ask in Jesus name like the Bible says. You can ask people to pray for you but you don't pray to them like people pray to Mary.
My brother, who is in Iraq, has asked for family and friends to pray for him--to intercede on his behalf. The so-called prayer to Mary that Catholics recite is similar to his request. Catholics ask Mary to intercede on their behalf.
If l ...[text shortened]... we ask for prayers from those still living, or those living still?
I believe that this is a sinful world and God won't let his saved people look at what us sinful people do.
Mary is just another human like us, and she is probably praising God just like all the other saved people are doing in heaven.
Originally posted by WulebgrMary is not omnipresent. She can no more hear your prayer than your cousin in the other room.
My brother, who is in Iraq, has asked for family and friends to pray for him--to intercede on his behalf. The so-called prayer to Mary that Catholics recite is similar to his request. Catholics ask Mary to intercede on their behalf.
If life eternal is granted to those who believe, what difference does it make whether we ask for prayers from those still living, or those living still?