1. Hmmm . . .
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    18 Oct '07 17:181 edit
    This seems to have been a notion present in many past discussions here, and so I thought I’d try to put the questions—

    (1) Under what conditions can submission to authority be considered a virtue (in the moral/ethical sense)?

    (2) Under what conditions can refusal to submit to authority be considered a virtue?

    (3) Under what conditions can submission to an all-powerful supreme being (i.e., God) be considered a virtue?

    (4) Under what conditions can refusal to submit to an all-powerful supreme being (i.e., God) be considered a virtue?
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    18 Oct '07 17:25
    Originally posted by vistesd
    This seems to have been a notion present in many past discussions here, and so I thought I’d try to put the questions—

    (1) Under what conditions can submission to authority be considered a virtue (in the moral/ethical sense)?

    (2) Under what conditions can refusal to submit to authority be considered a virtue?

    (3) Under what conditions can ...[text shortened]... an refusal to submit to an all-powerful supreme being (i.e., God) be considered a virtue?
    I don't think submission to an authority can ever be considered a virtue.
  3. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    18 Oct '07 17:53
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I don't think submission to an authority can ever be considered a virtue.
    If you had submitted to my authority in our last little spat that sent you into hiding for months, you would have saved yourself a lot of embarrassment. If you value not being embarrassed, then such submission would be virtuous.
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    18 Oct '07 18:00
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    If you had submitted to my authority in our last little spat that sent you into hiding for months, you would have saved yourself a lot of embarrassment. If you value not being embarrassed, then such submission would be virtuous.
    Delusions of grandeur are amusing. Do you feel the need to troll up this thread?
  5. Subscriberduecer
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    18 Oct '07 18:03
    Originally posted by vistesd
    This seems to have been a notion present in many past discussions here, and so I thought I’d try to put the questions—

    (1) Under what conditions can submission to authority be considered a virtue (in the moral/ethical sense)?

    (2) Under what conditions can refusal to submit to authority be considered a virtue?

    (3) Under what conditions can ...[text shortened]... an refusal to submit to an all-powerful supreme being (i.e., God) be considered a virtue?
    1) Every day we submit to authority by paying taxes, following the rules etc... I think the virtue here is being a cooperative member of society.
    2) Refusal to submit to say a military draft, during an illegal and immoral war would be a virtue.
    3)Submitting to God (for arguments sake) is an act of faith, and trust that God will guide in a way that is ultimately best for your life.
    4)Submitting to God(again for arguments sake), only because you hope to gain from it, and not out of faith or devotion would not be a virtue.
  6. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    18 Oct '07 18:071 edit
    Originally posted by no1maruader
    Delusions of grandeur are amusing. Do you feel the need to troll up this thread?
    I am providing an example for (1).
  7. Hmmm . . .
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    18 Oct '07 18:151 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Delusions of grandeur are amusing. Do you feel the need to troll up this thread?
    Well, it seems that Dr. S. caught me not defining “authority” clearly (though you got the sense in which I intended it).

    2 a: power to influence or command thought, opinion, or behavior (Webster’s Online Dictionary)

    One might submit to the "authority" of an argument because one concludes that it is correct. One might (at least tentatively) submit to the "authority" of one who appears to have more knowledge of a given subject; but I don't think that such submission ought to be absolute, but in a sense partial and pending further investigation or learning.

    My questions could be rephrased in terms of submitting to power, and what kind of conditions need to be present for a powerful agent to have some additional, legitimating authority...
  8. Hmmm . . .
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    18 Oct '07 18:462 edits
    Originally posted by duecer
    1) Every day we submit to authority by paying taxes, following the rules etc... I think the virtue here is being a cooperative member of society.
    2) Refusal to submit to say a military draft, during an illegal and immoral war would be a virtue.
    3)Submitting to God (for arguments sake) is an act of faith, and trust that God will guide in a way that is ultima ...[text shortened]... , only because you hope to gain from it, and not out of faith or devotion would not be a virtue.
    Your answers to (1) and (2) seem to distinguish between submitting to government because you judge it to be acting justly, and refusing to submit because you judge it to be acting unjustly. In both cases, you make the judgment (let us assume for good reason).

    Ought one to submit to God in the absence of being able to reasonably make such a judgment (let alone submit to a God that one sees as unjust)?

    Can a just God expect submission from one who finds they cannot (for whatever reasons or limitations) reasonably make such a judgment?*

    The reason for these questions is that some people have claimed that God’s justness and righteousness cannot be judged by human understanding, and remain mysterious to us. In fact, it has been claimed that it is arrogant for us to expect to be able to make such a judgment. Therefore, it would seem that we are asked, under such a scenario, to make an absolute submission in ignorance, due to the limitations of human understanding—aside from whatever evidence there may be that would enable us to make such a judgment if we were capable.

    This goes to the old argument between those who say that whatever God does must be counted as just simply because God is God, and those who say that God can only be deemed to be just because he acts justly according to human understanding (which is the only understanding we have).

    * Let me use the Methodist Quadrilateral, as you have expressed it, to try to specify a bit:

    Suppose that a person’s reason and experience (employing them honestly and to the best of their ability, including applying them to scripture and tradition) lead them to conclude either (a) that God is not just, or (b) that they cannot determine whether or not God is just. Under such conditions, could God justly expect submission from such a person, rewarding the submission and punishing refusal to submit?


    __________________________________________

    I am, of course, side-lining the question of whether or not a supernatural supreme being exists at all.
  9. Subscriberduecer
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    18 Oct '07 19:03
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Your answers to (1) and (2) seem to distinguish between submitting to government because you judge it to be acting justly, and refusing to submit because you judge it to be acting unjustly. In both cases, you make the judgment (let us assume for good reason).

    Ought one to submit to God in the absence of being able to reasonably make such a judgment (let ...[text shortened]... f course, side-lining the question of whether or not a supernatural supreme being exists at all.
    yes, on 1 and 2 I believe it is up to the individual to decide for him/herself, as it seems situational.
    I too am not arguing the existance of God (although I do believe).

    Can a just God expect submission? A better question would be; does God (please assume one exists) expect us to submit? I think He probably does not "expect" it, but would prefer if we do. We are made in God's image (not His likeness), in that we have the ability to choose, to distinguish between good and evil, to create, and to destroy. We are not all powerful or all knowing, but we do share these other traits with God.


    "Therefore, it would seem that we are asked, under such a scenario, to make an absolute submission in ignorance, due to the limitations of human understanding"


    We make decisions all the time without being absolutely certain. We leave for work in the morning, not knowing if we will be killed by a drunk driver on the way, we buy a computer, not knowing if it will work when we take it out of the box. Life is uncertain, of that I am certain
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    18 Oct '07 19:12
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I don't think submission to an authority can ever be considered a virtue.
    What about in the following relationships:

    1. Children and Parents
    2. Students and teachers
    3. Soldiers and Captain

    In most life situations authority and submission to that authority is both normal and desirable.
  11. Subscriberduecer
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    18 Oct '07 19:18
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I don't think submission to an authority can ever be considered a virtue.
    stations in life help to preserve subordination, subordination is essential to an orderly society
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    18 Oct '07 19:341 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Your answers to (1) and (2) seem to distinguish between submitting to government because you judge it to be acting justly, and refusing to submit because you judge it to be acting unjustly. In both cases, you make the judgment (let us assume for good reason).

    Ought one to submit to God in the absence of being able to reasonably make such a judgment (let ...[text shortened]... f course, side-lining the question of whether or not a supernatural supreme being exists at all.
    God has shown us the example of submission through Christ his Son. So what did we learn from this submission? You could argue that power is gained via submission and that Christ gained such power for us over death, hell, and the grave as indicated by scripture.

    For example, if I chose to serve you by doing something would you not have a sense of indebtedness to me especially if such serice was unwarrented? Would you not feel obligated to me in some way?
  13. Subscriberduecer
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    18 Oct '07 20:15
    Originally posted by whodey
    God has shown us the example of submission through Christ his Son. So what did we learn from this submission? You could argue that power is gained via submission and that Christ gained such power for us over death, hell, and the grave as indicated by scripture.

    For example, if I chose to serve you by doing something not have a sense of inwould you debted ...[text shortened]... o me especially if such serice was unwarrented? Would you not feel obligated to me in some way?
    God has shown us the example of submission through Christ his...

    I think the argument is philisophical in nature, not theological, or more specifically Christian.

    For example, if I chose to serve you by doing something not have a sense of inwould you debtedness to me especially if such serice was ...

    The question isn't weather I would feel obligated, I am not a supreme being; but to reiterate, I think submission with the expectation of gain would be wrong.
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    18 Oct '07 20:321 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I don't think submission to an authority can ever be considered a virtue.
    Can you say some more about this. Is not your profession and our legal system based upon the authority of laws, courts, judges, and accountability?

    A couple of thoughts from ministers who would do well to submit to authority. Richard Roberts would do well to stop putting off everything he wants to do as "God told me to to this." Yea, he's delusional, but isn't his problem that he doesn't want to submit to human authority.

    Jimmy Swaggert was disciplined by his denomination, but he had one of these "Rchard Roberts" moments where he didn't need any accountability because God told him something. Are these not good examples of grandious men who would be well served to submit to the authority of other people?
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    18 Oct '07 20:35
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Can you say some more about this. Is not your profession and our legal system based upon the authority of laws, courts, judges, and accountability?
    Virtue? There's no room for virtue. After all, it's a LEGAL system, not a JUSTICE system 🙂
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