Let us dwell a moment more on Lee's 'wisdom' (sic)
"The unique Creator, God, is triune, signified by the number three. Since the creation is represented before God by four living creatures (Revelation 4:6-9), the number four signifies creatures, especially man. Hence, three plus four means that God is added to the created man, and thus His purpose is being accomplished. The church is not only the creature, but the creature with the Creator as the Triune God dispensed into her. She is the real number seven: the real three, the Triune God, added to the real four, created man. Therefore the number seven denotes completion in God’s move, first in the old creation and then in the new creation, the church."
(The Recovery Version: Footnotes of Revelation)
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@divegeester
I thought it might be the case that your saying you would contact anonymously with P.O. Box LSM, was so much hot air and you're still considering ... well ... something else.
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
It is noted that you are not willing to reason with me from the Scriptures about My people - God's people - being caught in a mixture from which they need recovery.
Guerrilla warfare style, you intend to just lobe other objections, and still other objections, with a minimum of comment just to keep me busy.
The benefit of a doubt I gave you that you really want to analyze the fairness of a charge against Lee, is diminished.
I will just have to reason this along without your willing participation. The result will be the same, I think.
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.1.) A voice from heaven calls God's people to come out of the degraded Babylon the Mother of Prostitutes. Since they are "My people" their eternal irrevocable destiny is that every one of them will eventually be built up into the New Jerusalem as their eternal blessing.
2.) But Babylon from which they are called to come out is also something being built up by forces not of God.
And I heard another voice out of heaven saying, Come out of her My people, that you do not participate in her sins and that you do not receive her plagues;
For her sins have accumulated up to heaven, and God has remembered her unrighteuosnesses." (Rev. 18:4,5)
3.) This must mean that Babylon is a mixture of believers ("My people") with unbelievers. For once the believers come out the judgment is still to fall upon whoever is left there piling up her sins to heaven.
4.) This means that the mixture has so influenced the people of God that they are participating in a building up of something which is doomed because of its sinful offensiveness to God.
"Come out of her My people, that YOU DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN HER SINS ... and receive her plagues ..."
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So it is not unreasonable at all to say God's people have been captive participants in a building which is not being built up by God but by God's enemies (the unbelievers from whom they should "Come out" of the building association).
The ISMS of religion Catholocism, Protestantism, are a mixture of the saints of God "My people" and the overbearing opponents against God building up sins higher and higher up to heaven. God has not forgotten.
"For her sins have accumulated up to heaven, and God has remembered her unrighteousnesses." (v.5)
There must be an eventual polarization in which God's people withdraw from all of the mixture and all of the worldly influence with a Christian facade. His people are built up into the Wife New Jerusalem and the worldly, Satan control false nominal religious power holders remain in the judged Mother of Prostitutes to be judged in the end of the church age.
God will not tolerate the mixture forever. And the time for we Christians to spiritually first come out of all the influence of the pseudo "wife" who is called the Mother of Prostitutes and all her "daughters" must come.
The building of the church must prevail over the building of the counterfeit religious mixture.
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock [the rock of the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God (v.16)] I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18)
'The Lord is not building His church in Christendom, which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations. This...is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished...Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organization of Satan.'
From this we can extrapolate that Witness Lee believes all Protestants, Catholics, and Jews are destined for the fires of hell, as Revelations makes quite clear that is the fate of worshippers of Satan.
As a Lee apologist, sonship is apparently cool with this.
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'The Lord is not building His church in Christendom,
The term "Christiandom" involves EVERYTHING claiming some legetimate connection to the Christian gospel.
This would no doubt include assemblies of Christians.
But the "dom" would include such "Christian" organizations like
Ku Klux Klan
Westboro Baptist Church
Christian Science Church
Jehovah's Witnesses (arguably)
Any number of racist supremacists hate groups which claim to be "Christian".
The YMCA (even if everyone at the Y was an atheist).
The wide conglomeration of entities lifting up the banner of "Christian"
are all a part of what we could call "Christian-DOM".
Even genuine local churches which include elements of corruption could not escape the assignment of being a part of "Christiandom".
It is something in our blood. It is not something so easy to walk across the street to get away from.
Holloween is consider a part of Christiandom.
Easter and Christmas with bunny rabbits and Santa Claus are all considered a part of "Christiandom".
It is not a matter always of something being "bad". It is a matter of something being OTHER THAN - Christ.
Christiandom then is composed of Christian plus a mixture of millions of people and matters which are not of Christ. They may be good things but things not of Christ.
If the building of the church as an organic entity is swallowed up and overpowered by this worldly conglomeration of tangentially related stuff claiming a "Christian" association, that will not stand the test of endurance of time and can be shaken. For its nature is not in resurrection.
Only what is constituted with the resurrection life of Christ will stand the test to pass on through the end of this age and into the next age of the kingdom.
To the world "Christiandom" may be a good thing for world culture.
But it is not the church that Christ said He would build.
Christians smothered under Christiandom must eventually come out of it.
And allow Christ to work it out of them to live solely by Christ.
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which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations.
That is correct. When a man or woman can attend a seminary, come out with a "Divinity Degree" suited for some hierarchical position yet be an unbeliever or an atheist, that is fueling to building up of Christiandom.
And many such things happen to prolong the mixture which is Christiandom.
This...is being fulfilled through the Lord's recovery, in which the building of the genuine church is being accomplished...Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organization of Satan.'
The New Testament says that the whole world lies in Satan, the evil one.
The whole world lies passive underneath his god opposeing working hands.
"And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the evil one." (First John 5:19)
So if the world overpowers the EKKLESIA (the CALLED OUT ones) then the building up of the church as a life entity of God is polluted, mixed, diluted, damaged, defiled, and marred by something of the world.
The building up of the world has subsumed the church in a "Christiandom".
The whole world lies in Satan the evil one.
Satan offered Jesus the whole world in temptation. He said he knew that it was his [Satan's]. Christ did not dispute it.
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
And he said to Him, All these will I give You if You will fall down and worship me." (Matt. 4:8,9)
Satan is called "the ruler of the world"
"Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out." (John 12:31)
Even in 1520 Martin Luther saw and wrote of (Latin: De captivitate Babylonica ecclesiae, praeludium Martini Lutheri, "The Babylonian Captivity of the Church".
The delimma of a EKKLESIA submerged and overpowered by the world, the world governments, and pagan superstitious mixture is recognized for centuries.
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The apostasy is something predicted in the New Testament itself.
"For the time will come when they will not tolerate healthy teaching, but according to their own lusts they will heap up to themselves teachers tickling the ear,
And they will turn away their ear from the truth, and will be turned aside to fables." (2 Timothy 4:3,4)
ChristianDOM includes the mixture of real believers and millions who have turned aside (true and false believers).
Because of the errors of the apostasy the way of the truth will be maligned and blasphemed.
"But there arose also false prophets among the people, as also among you there will be false teachers, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
And many will follow their licentiousness, because of whom the way of the truth will be reviled." ( Second Peter 2:1,2)
This has all come to pass. Haters of the Gospel of Christ love that it has happened because it gives them ground to revile like Christopher Hitchens that "Religion poisons everything" and that "God is not great".
From this we can extrapolate that Witness Lee believes all Protestants, Catholics, and Jews are destined for the fires of hell, as Revelations makes quite clear that is the fate of worshippers of Satan.
No he does not.
That is a false accusation probably based on an eagerness to misunderstand.
When God says "Come out of her My people" to the saved in "Babylon the Mother of Prostitutes" is He saying they should come out so He may send them to hell ?
My people are eternally saved even though they may be captive in a mixed, up confused Babel, mixture of worldliness and things Christian.
You are indeed an Atheist turned apologetic defender of Christian orthodoxy. This for you is a good step in a good direction though.
But you are wrong that because the religious organization is run by the Devil that eternally saved believers caught captive in the system are damned.
As a Lee apologist, sonship is apparently cool with this.
Since the criticism of Lee's attitude towards those in Christiandom is atotally FALSE, this too is a FALSE conclusion.
What Ghost is trying to slander Lee about is that he teaches what organization one is in determines salvation.
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Ghost you have ignored other questions put to you.
Now I ask you two more:
1.) Do you believe that there is something wrong with the Christian Church?
Yes or No?
2.) Do you believe that what is wrong with the Christian Church is incurable ?
Yes or No?
These should be easy questions of which you should have no fear to reply.
@sonship saidHold your horses there sonship.
which is composed of the apostate Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant denominations.
That is correct. When a man or woman can attend a seminary, come out with a "Divinity Degree" suited for some hierarchical position yet be an unbeliever or an atheist, that is fueling to building up of Christiandom.
And many such things happen to prolong the mixt ...[text shortened]... ed by the world, the world governments, and pagan superstitious mixture is recognized for centuries.
"Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, All these will I give You if You will fall down and worship me." (Matt. 4:8,9)
To follow Satan is to worship Satan, and if Lee is correct about Protestants, Catholics and Jews being an organization of Satan (being led by him) then Revelations is quite clear that they are destined for hell.
Do you dispute this?
@sonship saidA line has been drawn in the sand here sonship. Do you stand with your Christian brothers (across the denominations) or do you stand with Witness Lee who destines them to hell for being followers of Satan?!
Ghost you have ignored other questions put to you.
Now I ask you two more:
1.) Do you believe that there is something wrong with the Christian Church?
Yes or No?
2.) Do you believe that what is wrong with the Christian Church is incurable ?
Yes or No?
These should be easy questions of which you should have no fear to reply.
(Your last 2 questions are a bit redundant, being asked to an atheist. The thing 'wrong' with the Christian church is that it is built around a fictitious deity. Does that answer surprise you? - And no, there is no cure for that).
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
a LINE DRAWN IN THE SAND huh ?
Alright what's you line?
A line has been drawn in the sand here sonship. Do you stand with your Christian brothers (across the denominations) or do you stand with Witness Lee who destines them to hell for being followers of Satan?!
Now I have to be rude. I'm sorry to have to be rude. But it seems unavoidable.
You did not PROVE that Witness Lee teaches that all those in the Protestant denominations or Catholic Church are for THAT REASON destined for hell.
So your question contains a LYING insinuation.
It is as bad as "Have you stopped raping your neighbor's wife yet?"
Rephrase it.
Or go back and educate yourself that it is a FALSE premise that because Lee spoke truthfully about the problems of Christiandom that he believes everyone not in a local church is destined for hell.
IN FACT, I don't think I got an ANSWER from any of you loud mouths when I asked -
Did Witness Lee teach that only churches which receive his ministry, read his books, study his messages can be called genuine local churches?
The answer is decidedly NO, and NO.
Challenge me to prove it. Witness Lee taught us that even if a local church did not like to listen to his messages or study his books they could still be a genuine local church. Because the test is do Christians in a locality receive all the brothers and sisters as belonging to that local church.
Reception of books my Watchman Nee and Witness Lee is not the criteria.
Anyway, your loaded question will not be dignified by me answering it until you acknowledged that Witness Lee did not say being in Protestant churches or Catholic churches meant you were unsaved.
(Your last 2 questions are a bit redundant, being asked to an atheist. The thing 'wrong' with the Christian church is that it is built around a fictitious deity. Does that answer surprise you? - And no, there is no cure for that).
You're then a flaming hypocrit.
Out of one side of your mouth you condemn a man for speaking of an illness of the Christian church. And out of the other side of your lying mouth you yourself say the situation is hopeless, incurable.
So then why the hell are you so offended in whatever Witness Lee said ?
He speaks as he does because like the New Testament, he knows that is hope and there is the church triumphant in the end
You're a flaming hypocrit coming here with crocodile tears as if you are SO tolerant !, SO considerate of fair treatment of believers in the Christian public ... NOT!
As for fictitious God? Never did a group of people with a "fictitious God" have a more energized DEFENDER.
@sonship saidYes, I did.
You did not PROVE that Witness Lee teaches that all those in the Protestant denominations or Catholic Church are for THAT REASON destined for hell.
The book of Revelations says followers of Satan will go to hell. Witness Lee said that Protestants and Catholics were an organization of Satan.
Join the dots.