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Orthodox Christianity teaches that the one God is three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Lee says however:
'The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate persons or three Gods; they are one God, one reality, one person… God is triune; that is, He is three-one. In some theological writings, the preposition in is added between three and one to make three-in-one. However, it is more accurate to say that God is three-one.'
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30 May 19
3 edits
Lets see now.
I doubt that you can see much.
You hear the voice of Jesus
I must have because I have been given by the Father to the Son, the Good Shepherd.
"My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all ..." (10:29a)
The Father gave me to Jesus. Sorry you don't approve.
Jesus said not to follow his commandments
I never taught that Jesus said to not follow His commandments.
Jesus said to follow Witness Lee
I never taught that Jesus explicitly said to follow a man who was not yet born at the time.
Jesus told you that Judaism is an organisation of Satan
In Matthew 23 Jesus rebuked the leaders severely of that present day Judaism repeatedly.
Do you deny this?
Jesus told you that Catholicism and all Christian churches are organisations of Satan.
The New Testament predicts that apostasy in the Christian church was to take place. For example both in some of the parables in Matthew 13 and in the epistles the disciples were warned of coming apostasy.
Paul said below from such situations turn away.
But know this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boasters, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, implacable,slanderers, without self-control, savage, not lovers of good, traitors, reckless, blinded with pride, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
Having the form of godliness, though denying its power; from these also turn away." (2 Timothy 3:1-5)
In other words too much of the fallen world can infiltrate the Christian community. From these also, we for our spiritual sake, should turn away.
The leavening of the lump of flour until the whole lump became leavened by the woman in Matthew 13:33 is also about Satan's world infiltrating and corrupting the kingdom of the heavens to create a facade, a counterfeit entity.
Still, the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 are represented before God as golden lampstands. This means in HIS view the church is of God's nature of gold. And Christians are called in all the situations to hear the Spirit and to overcome the surrounding degradation should there be any.
Jesus told you that you have eternal life.
Yes. The New Testament we believe is the speaking of God, the speaking of the Lord Jesus. John writes these things to us believers in Christ that we may KNOW that we have eternal life.
"I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)
Is that it?
You don't approve? Who are you?
Sounds like it is the voice of Satan you are hearing.
To listen to First John 5:13 is to listen to the word of God.
You're near blasphemy to suggest it is to hear Satan.
But the Lord Jesus will judge. I need not.
The only reason why people hear that voice is because their heart is not with God.
To believe the word of First John 5:13 is to certainly have a heart open to God.
But the Lord Jesus will judge you. I need not here.
I'll tend to my own walk with the Lord.
If your heart was with God, you would not be easily led astray.
To heed and believe First John 5:13 is not to be led astray.
It is to be led by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus will examine you and judge. I need not here before the time.
God protects his people from false doctrines and lies.
First John 5:13 is neither a false doctrine or a lie.
Jesus will deal with you. I don't need to do so here.
I'll see to my own walk with God.
As for other people .. I think people who originally supported you are too embarrased that they once did.
I don't expect anyone here to agree 100% all the time with everything i wrote.
And if I were a manpleaser as you accused, your warning might concern me.
I say "Let God be true and every man a liar."
And you have not been able to point out the errors of my use of Scripture.
This thread and the points brought out by Ghost has caused your reputation and your credibility among Christians to fall to nothing. And that is where you will stay. Imagine that, the big preacher sonship,
Oh, that's some kind of exaggeration.
And I am not a man pleaser here that I cannot stand that my "reputation" is frowned upon for some thread now and then.
brought down by an atheist ...LOL I love it. There is a God.
Go back to your bible and find the passage which says "do not rejoice when your enemy stumbles" (Proverbs 24:17)
And didn't the chapter on godly love in First Corinthians 13 say that love does not take account of evil or rejoice in wrong doing?
" ... Love does not brag and is not puffed up" " (v.4)
Why do you sound so puffed up?
"It does not behave unbecomingly and does not seek its own things, it is not provoked and does not take account of evil."
Why are you so gleeful saying you LOVE IT, that you deem me being put down by an atheist ?
"It does not rejoice because of unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth." (v.6)
But YOU ...
brought down by an atheist ...LOL I love it. There is a God.
Were you just saying something about concern for a Christian's credibility ?
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30 May 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidRJHinds would have viewed the above from Lee as a form of Modalism.
Orthodox Christianity teaches that the one God is three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Lee says however:
'The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate persons or three Gods; they are one God, one reality, one person… God is triune; that is, He is three-one. In some theological writings, the preposition in is added between three and one to make three-in-one. However, it is more accurate to say that God is three-one.'
'The Heresy of Modalism
Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.
Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).'
https://www.google.com/#q=the+heresy+of+modalism
Witness Lee seems to have just modified this heresy to fit his teachings.
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30 May 19
RJHinds would have viewed the above from Lee as a form of Modalism.
Are you actually going to run and hide behind a poster who is no longer active on the board ?
Find him then and ask him to return to the Forum and work it out with the webmasters. I don't know why he's not here any more. But he isn't.
I don't think thrusting RJHinds forward on your behalf does too much.
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30 May 19
Witness Lee criticizes other Orthodox Christians who believe in the Trinity Doctrine when he made the following statement:
"They think of the Father as one Person, sending the Son, another Person, to accomplish redemption, after which the Son sends the Spirit, yet another Person.... To split the Godhead into three separate Persons is not the revelation of the Bible...."
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30 May 19
Witness Lee teaches that God is one person, not three persons in one God as in Orthodox Christianity.
"The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate Persons or three Gods; they are one God, one reality, one person."
Witness Lee, The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripaetite Man, 1970, p. 48.
30 May 19
@sonship saidI rejoice when false doctrines fail. I rejoice when people who do not preach the doctrine of Christ are brought into disrepute.
@Rajk999
Lets see now.
I doubt that you can see much.
You hear the voice of Jesus
I must have because I have been given by the Father to the Son, the Good Shepherd."My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all ..." (10:29a)
The Father gave me to Jesus. Sorry you don't approve.
Jes ...[text shortened]... is a God.
Were you just saying something about concern for a Christian's credibility ?
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30 May 19
1 edit
RJHinds would have viewed the above from Lee as a form of Modalism.
'The Heresy of Modalism
Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian ...
https://www.google.com/#q=the+heresy+of+modalism
Witness Lee seems to have just modified this heresy to fit his teachings.
This criticism of teaching Modalism is more appropriate to be leveled at one Divegeester. I think you'll find that he has a anti-trinatarian Modalistic view of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
At least he use to. And it reminded me very much of Oneness Pentacostalism - the "Jesus Only" denominations who definitely teach the old Modalism refused centuries ago by the wiser Christian brothers.
Now, Witness Lee, as he should, emphasizes what is SAID, what is WRITTEN, over creeds, formulas, as helpful as they may or may not be.
Formal CREEDS brings Christians into trouble. But Witness Lee always taught that the STATEMENTS or to be believed even if we cannot easily or cannot logically reconcile apparent contradictions.
We believe "Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) because the word of God tells us so. It is not to uphold a creedal formula.
We believe "A Son ... given ... will be called Eternal Father" (Isa. 9:6) not for the sake of upholding a theoligical formal creedal statement. But we believe it because that is what is WRITTEN.
Creeds may be helpful.
Creeds do not transcend in important the STATEMENTS of the pure word of God.
THAT is what Witness Lee taught.
The
Creeds
We have covered three crucial points concerning the Divine Trinity. Now we come to the fourth point—the creeds, which have been highly regarded by the church through the ages for nearly two thousand years. A creed is a rule of faith. When the contents of man's belief are enumerated and set forth in writing, article by article, these articles of faith are called a creed. Due to man's inadequate knowledge, the creeds all have some deviations and defects. The outline above shows us one heresy found in the creeds and fifteen items lacking in the creeds.
Today's degraded and deformed Christianity puts the cart before the horse, so to speak, by taking the creeds instead of the entire body of biblical truths as the standard. This is a grave mistake. Although the creeds are good, they are incomplete and even considerably incomplete. In 1828 the Brethren were raised up by the Lord. After discovering the inadequacy of the creeds, they declared that they wanted no creed but the Bible. The incompleteness of the creeds is primarily due to the inadequate knowledge concerning the Divine Trinity. Following the Brethren, those in the Baptist denomination also declared, “No creed but the Bible.” Then another group, the so-called Church of Christ, also made the same declaration. The fourth group of people to make such a declaration are those who are in the Lord's recovery. Sixty years ago when we were raised up in China, we also declared, “We do not care for the creeds; we care only for the Bible.”
https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=1FA3F6C0F7
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30 May 19
1 edit
Now notice this paragraph from Witness Lee,
Pay attention to how he explains that Christians in groups BEFORE the local churches did something right which he says the local churches latter ALSO did.
This nullifies the attempt to portray Lee as condemning to Satan all other Christians beside himself and those under his ministry, (THOUGH he spoke some rebuking words)
See the balance.
Today's degraded and deformed Christianity puts the cart before the horse, so to speak, by taking the creeds instead of the entire body of biblical truths as the standard. This is a grave mistake. Although the creeds are good, they are incomplete and even considerably incomplete. In 1828 the Brethren were raised up by the Lord. After discovering the inadequacy of the creeds, they declared that they wanted no creed but the Bible. The incompleteness of the creeds is primarily due to the inadequate knowledge concerning the Divine Trinity. Following the Brethren, those in the Baptist denomination also declared, “No creed but the Bible.” Then another group, the so-called Church of Christ, also made the same declaration. The fourth group of people to make such a declaration are those who are in the Lord's recovery. Sixty years ago when we were raised up in China, we also declared, “We do not care for the creeds; we care only for the Bible.”
Something exemplary was done by the Brethren, the Baptists, the Church of Christ, and followed by the saints in the local churches raised up in China under Watchman Nee.
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I rejoice when false doctrines fail. I rejoice when people who do not preach the doctrine of Christ are brought into disrepute.
You were getting your jollies and LOVING IT that an atheist was allegedly putting my false teaching down.
After you stop your giggling in loving delight with your atheist hero, consider that you have YET to prove that First John 5:13 is a false teaching that should not be believed.
Prove now to us that First John 5:13 means the exact OPPOSITE of what it says.
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30 May 19
1 edit
Witness Lee criticizes other Orthodox Christians who believe in the Trinity Doctrine when he made the following statement:
"They think of the Father as one Person, sending the Son, another Person, to accomplish redemption, after which the Son sends the Spirit, yet another Person.... To split the Godhead into three separate Persons is not the revelation of the Bible...."
The key word there is "separate".
Witness Lee taught that the three of the Godhead were distinct but not separate. Each lives in the other. And theologians have called this co-inheritance.
distinct but not separate.
You are going to have to decide if you are going to read some of these books for YOURSELF or whether you are just going to take some disgruntled grumbler's word for everything.
[my bolding]
The Divine Trinity being implied by God, His Spirit, and His word shows that the three of the Trinity are distinct but not separate. God's Spirit is God's breath (Job 33:4), and God's word is God's breathing (2 Tim. 3:16), which is by God's breath—Spirit. Job 33:4 says, “The Spirit of God has made me, / And the breath of the Almighty has enlivened me.” In this verse we can see that the Spirit of God is the breath of the Almighty. Second Timothy 3:16 says, “All Scripture is God-breathed.” God, His Spirit, and His word are distinct, but they are inseparably related to one another. A man, his breath, and his speaking are three distinct things, but they cannot be separated from one another. It is impossible to speak if we do not breathe. Therefore, speaking is a kind of breathing. Thus, the implication of the Trinity in Genesis 1:1-3 with God, His Spirit, and His word establishes a basic principle concerning the Trinity—that the three are distinct but not separate.
The Divine Trinity as Revealed in the Holy Word
https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=18ABFBC4F9DA
by Witness Lee
30 May 19
@sonship saidI already dealt with 1 John 5:13 above. You too busy writing nonsense instead of reading what people say.
@Rajk999
I rejoice when false doctrines fail. I rejoice when people who do not preach the doctrine of Christ are brought into disrepute.
You were getting your jollies and LOVING IT that an atheist was allegedly putting my false teaching down.
After you stop your giggling in loving delight with your atheist hero, consider that you have YET to prove th ...[text shortened]... e believed.
Prove now to us that First John 5:13 means the exact OPPOSITE of what it says.
Basically as I explained above [and this is your failing in your doctrine], you do not take the teachings of the bible in the intended context. Not everything applies to everybody.
30 May 19
@rajk999 saidLet me copy and paste what I wrote about 1 John 5:13
I already dealt with 1 John 5:13 above. You too busy writing nonsense instead of reading what people say.
Basically as I explained above [and this is your failing in your doctrine], you do not take the teachings of the bible in the intended context. Not everything applies to everybody.
John is speaking to a select group of Christians, much like Group 1 in i Cor 3 in Pauls list of three groups:
1. Saved and rewarded
2. Punished but still saved
3. DESTROYED .
John addresses Group 1. These are the Christian Saints who have eternal life. In the first 4 verses of that chapter :
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:1-4 KJV)
Group 1 Christians have eternal life.
1. They have faith
2. They love God and Christ
3. They keep the commandments
4. They overcome the world
THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. All Christians are not in this group.
Some Christians will be punished
Some will be DESTROYED.
Read the context and see who is being addressed.
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01 Jun 19
C. Grace and Responsibility
Calvinists stress the matter of absolute grace, and Arminians stress human responsibility. But according to the Bible, divine grace is for human responsibility. On the day of Pentecost, Peter told the people, “Be saved from this perverse generation” (Acts 2:40, Gk.). Peter did not say, “Save yourselves.” as the King James Version renders it; he said, “Be saved.” To save yourself means that you do this yourself; to be saved means that someone else does it for you, yet you must allow him to do it. The Lord is saving us, but He needs our cooperation. For example, a mother may not say to her child, “Feed yourself”; she may say, “Be fed. Don’t be naughty and shut your mouth—open your mouth and be fed. Take the food and swallow it.” Although salvation is absolutely a matter of grace, we must be willing to be saved and willing to believe in the Lord. Even the Almighty God cannot do anything for us if we are not willing to believe in Him. Being willing to believe is our responsibility, the cooperation we render to God’s saving. Regardless of the grace extended to us, we all must be willing to believe in the Lord, look to Him, open ourselves to receive His grace, and allow it to work on our behalf.
Life Study of Hebrews by Witness Lee
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
01 Jun 19
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@sonship saidFoolish comment from a foolish man. Did you read what Jude said about the grace of God and people who abuse Gods grace?
[quote] C. Grace and Responsibility
Calvinists stress the matter of absolute grace, and Arminians stress human responsibility. But according to the Bible, divine grace is for human responsibility. On the day of Pentecost, Peter told the people, “Be saved from this perverse generation” (Acts 2:40, Gk.). Peter did not say, “Save yourselves.” as the King James Versio ...[text shortened]... /quote]
Life Study of Hebrews by Witness Lee
https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 1:4 KJV)
And Christ will....
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:15 KJV)
You continue to mislead people by preaching that Christians can abuse the grace of God and still get eternal life.