1. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    08 Jul '12 17:202 edits
    There's a difference between fiction and truth.


    There's a difference between fiction and truth. Fiction has to make sense. There's what you want to believe, everything else and the truth.

    Discuss.

    .
  2. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    08 Jul '12 17:41
    That's a Tom Clancy quote. Plagiarist!
  3. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    08 Jul '12 18:381 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    That's a Tom Clancy quote. Plagiarist!
    Astute of you to know that. Heard the phrase today in a waiting room, without mention of its author. Still worthy of discussion, don't you think.

    In a way it gets at the Pancoast 'learning to let go' observation: "The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off." -M. Pancoast


    gb
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    08 Jul '12 19:24
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]There's a difference between fiction and truth.


    There's a difference between fiction and truth. Fiction has to make sense. There's what you want to believe, everything else and the truth.

    Discuss.

    .[/b]
    eliminate beliefs from the equation and you're left with the truth and everything else.

    understand that truth is only an interpretation of reality limited by our capabilities and you're left with everything else.
  5. Subscribersonhouse
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    09 Jul '12 00:38
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    eliminate beliefs from the equation and you're left with the truth and everything else.

    understand that truth is only an interpretation of reality limited by our capabilities and you're left with everything else.
    So you are saying eliminate fiction and truth and you are left with everything else?
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    09 Jul '12 04:03
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    So you are saying eliminate fiction and truth and you are left with everything else?
    that's pretty much it. truth is reasonable fiction.
  7. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    09 Jul '12 04:55
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    that's pretty much it. truth is reasonable fiction.
    You're saying Clancy got it wrong?
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    09 Jul '12 15:38
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]There's a difference between fiction and truth.


    There's a difference between fiction and truth. Fiction has to make sense. There's what you want to believe, everything else and the truth.

    Discuss.

    .[/b]
    A deep subject, actually. A fact is that which is the case; it is something that is "out there." A truth is a statement which bears some relationship to a specified fact. A falsehood does not bear that relationship. It can be difficult to describe the relationship that makes a statement true or false. Statements are facts in the sense that they are "out there" but they are true or false "in here" in the sense that we believe them to be such. A question is whether there is a certain relationship which is privileged above others in the identification of truths and falsehoods; and if so, what that relationship is.
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    09 Jul '12 17:29
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    You're saying Clancy got it wrong?
    no, i'm saying he didn't get it right enough.
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    09 Jul '12 17:581 edit
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    You're saying Clancy got it wrong?
    I don't think Clancy was talking about truth vs falsehoods but rather fiction (as in Novels) vs reality.
    In a novel, the bad guy has to have a motive when he does something bad. It has to make sense. In reality, there are lots of people who do things that do not make sense and have no obvious motive. Worse, when we look at politics, in a novel, you have to explain why a country/government/politicians is behaving a certain way, whereas in reality such large complex organization behave in what appears to be a nonsensical fashion and is often counter productive for all concerned.

    As for truth, it does at a minimum have to be logically consistent, or the use of the word 'truth' (a logical term) becomes somewhat suspect.
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    09 Jul '12 18:051 edit
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    [b]There's a difference between fiction and truth.


    There's a difference between fiction and truth. Fiction has to make sense. There's what you want to believe, everything else and the truth.

    Discuss.

    .[/b]
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy


    The difference between reality and fiction? Fiction has to make sense.
    Interview on Larry King Live
    Attributed variant: The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to make sense.
    Clancy here expresses an idea evoked in similar statements made by others, all derived from the orignial made by Lord Byron:
    Lord Byron: Truth is always strange; stranger than fiction.
    Mark Twain : Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities, truth isn't.
    G. K. Chesterton: Truth must necessarily be stranger than fiction, for fiction is the creation of the human mind and therefore congenial to it.
    Leo Rosten : Truth is stranger than fiction; fiction has to make sense. (attributed)

    unquote.

    I now think "reality" is a better word in this comparison, and I think "fiction" is meant to refer to a literary genre, not as "falsehood."

    Edit: so this thread belongs in General or Culture.
  12. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    09 Jul '12 22:09
    Originally posted by JS357
    A deep subject, actually. A fact is that which is the case; it is something that is "out there." A truth is a statement which bears some relationship to a specified fact. A falsehood does not bear that relationship. It can be difficult to describe the relationship that makes a statement true or false. Statements are facts in the sense that they are "out there" ...[text shortened]... hers in the identification of truths and falsehoods; and if so, what that relationship is.
    Think we're in agreement.
  13. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    09 Jul '12 22:11
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    no, i'm saying he didn't get it right enough.
    So it's all about degrees of factual and relative truth?
  14. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    09 Jul '12 22:15
    Originally posted by JS357
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy


    The difference between reality and fiction? Fiction has to make sense.
    Interview on Larry King Live
    Attributed variant: The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to make sense.
    Clancy here expresses an idea evoked in similar statements made by others, all deriv ...[text shortened]... iterary genre, not as "falsehood."

    Edit: so this thread belongs in General or Culture.
    Great Workmanship. General Forum lacks focus. Debates is an intelligent farce. Culture's dead.
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    09 Jul '12 23:511 edit
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    So it's all about degrees of factual and relative truth?
    close. i wouldn't call it truth. it's all about degrees of relative information.

    think of it as a giant jigsaw puzzle. you only have a view of what pieces you've put together so far. but it's a bit more complicated than that because there are similar pieces that kind-of fit together but really belong elsewhere. sometimes you have to tear down parts of the picture you have built and try different combinations. all of this is made more complicated because you haven't found all the pieces yet.

    once you figure out where all the pieces go and put the last one in place, you've become the archetypical god. only then can you have a claim to truth.
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