Thought Experiment

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Because I am only 99.999999999999999 % sure that gods do not exist I
must concede that the closest world in which a god could exist is this one.

However, I think a more likely one would be a world with one religion and
a holy book that did not have contradictions or need 3rd parties to explain.

Frankly I think a world actually designed and built by a god FOR humans would
look radically different.

You can only come to the conclusion that the ideal habitat for humans is stuck
on a tiny spinning rock in a vast empty space if you grew up on a tiny spinning
rock in a vast empty space.


If you had no idea what this reality looked like but you knew everything you could
possibly know about humans and what they need/want you would not create a universe
that looked like this.

There are all kinds of better ideas in Science Fiction, including tubular universes
or if you are going to have space open like it is, fill it with Ringworlds
and Banksian Orbitals, not these inelegant and inefficient and dangerous planets.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Does his concluding remark suggest superfluity or hypothetical excess: "So I would venture that the nearest possible world wherein such an entity exists is just a duplicate of the actual world." If not, what would be the rationale for a "duplicate"?

I don't think my concluding remark was excessive (I cannot say it is simply the actual world, since I take it that no such entity exists in the actual world). On the other hand, my concluding remark was not very precise. I cannot say it is an exact duplicate of the actual world, since, again, I take it that no such entity exists in the actual world. But anyway, hopefully it was clear what I meant there. The way I left it was not precise, admittedly. Do you have advice on how I should amend it to make it more precise?

I would go further and say that although I know that no such entity exists in the actual world; notwithstanding, it is both (1) logically possible that such an entity exists in the actual world and (2) epistemically possible for me that such an entity exists in the actual world. But I find both of those to be rather trivial. That's why I am thinking these types of questions could be more interesting for theists.

Originally posted by LemonJello
I took a look at the opening posts in the two threads to which you linked. I don't see how they are relevant to the current inquiry. Could you clarify?

Of course. These two sentences from the first paragraph of your own Original Post above:

"What is the nearest possible world (the one maximally closest to our actual world) wherein your god(s) does not exist? This question is of course specific to your particular theistic conception, whatever it happens to be." (LemonJello)

.... relate directly to the two Original Post [thread links] provided. How? They document the creation of "our actual world"; if God created a second or third ad infinitum other "nearest possible world(s)" and intended for us to know about them and His Purpose for them, He would have revealed sufficient information to eliminate any and all hypothetical speculations.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Here is a thought experiment that I think could be worthwhile. For theists, the question is roughly as follows. What is the nearest possible world (the one maximally closest to our actual world) wherein your god(s) does not exist? This question is of course specific to your particular theistic conception, whatever it happens to be. So, let's say you b ...[text shortened]... ctual world.

This question may be more interesting for theists rather than atheists.
😕

To a Cristian moron like me, this seems like a a stupid experiment and not worth my time and effort.

Originally posted by googlefudge
You really need to make your posts clearer.

Guessing at what you are asking...

The present world does not have a god or gods.
Thus while the nearest world that could have a god would be like this one,
it is not this one.
Hence duplicate.

Originally posted by googlefudge
You really need to make your posts clearer.

Specific changes you would like to see made?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Of course. These two sentences from the first paragraph of your own Original Post above:

"What is the nearest possible world (the one maximally closest to our actual world) wherein your god(s) does not exist? This question is of course specific to your particular theistic conception, whatever it happens to be." (LemonJello)

.... relate directly ...[text shortened]... e would have revealed sufficient information to eliminate any and all hypothetical speculations.

So you expected me to reach that incredibly bizarre inference on my own? Because your divine account includes no discussion about nearby possible worlds wherein God does not exist (how shocking), you infer you can have no reason to consider them? Or do you just infer from there that no such possible worlds exist? Either way, again, what an incredibly bizarre inference! Does the Bible reveal sufficient information to know what Grampy Bobby eats for lunch? If not, then clearly you can have no reason to consider such a question; or perhaps Grampy Bobby has never eaten lunch....🙄

Originally posted by LemonJello
Here is a thought experiment that I think could be worthwhile. For theists, the question is roughly as follows. What is the nearest possible world (the one maximally closest to our actual world) wherein your god(s) does not exist? This question is of course specific to your particular theistic conception, whatever it happens to be. So, let's say you b ...[text shortened]... ctual world.

This question may be more interesting for theists rather than atheists.
😕

Being a theist wholly informed by orthodox theology, I am persuaded that all that exists--- all that can exist or has ever existed--- finds its source in the same being: the Living God.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Being a theist wholly informed by orthodox theology, I am persuaded that all that exists--- all that can exist or has ever existed--- finds its source in the same being: the Living God.

So you are claiming that there are no possible worlds wherein God does not exist, correct? I would ask you the same question I asked GB: do you have any considerations that actually show this?

Originally posted by LemonJello
So you are claiming that there are no possible worlds wherein God does not exist, correct? I would ask you the same question I asked GB: do you have any considerations that actually show this?

I guess I don't know what you mean by "considerations?"

Originally posted by LemonJello
So you expected me to reach that incredibly bizarre inference on my own? Because your divine account includes no discussion about nearby possible worlds wherein God does not exist (how shocking), you infer you can have no reason to consider them? Or do you just infer from there that no such possible worlds exist? Either way, again, what an incredibly b ...[text shortened]... have no reason to consider such a question; or perhaps Grampy Bobby has never eaten lunch....🙄

Originally posted by LemonJello
[1] "So you expected me to reach that incredibly bizarre inference on my own?" [with your above average intellect, yes]

[2] "Because your divine account includes no discussion about nearby possible worlds wherein God does not exist (how shocking), you infer you can have no reason to consider them?" [Correct; if God had created other worlds and wanted us to be aware of them, He would have revealed sufficient information to inform us. I have no need or reason to presume to question or second guess the Sovereignty or Person or Plan of God.]

[3] "Or do you just infer from there that no such possible worlds exist? Either way, again, what an incredibly bizarre inference!" [Please see the two replies above]

[4] "Does the Bible reveal sufficient information to know what Grampy Bobby eats for lunch?" [No. God respects the privacy and volition of human beings, His Integrity (Justice and Righteousness) would have been compromised if He had provided what LemonJello hypothetically suggested.]

[5] If not, then clearly you can have no reason to consider such a question; or perhaps Grampy Bobby has never eaten lunch....🙄 [Would have been nice if you could have enjoyed a Bowl of New England Clam Chowder with me today for lunch; afterwards, we could have relaxed in the well appointed courtyard or taken a leisurely walk.]

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by googlefudge
[b]You really need to make your posts clearer.

Specific changes you would like to see made?[/b]

Yes. Write your post in plain English.

Ditch your 'style'.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by LemonJello
[1] "So you expected me to reach that incredibly bizarre inference on my own?" [with your above average intellect, yes]

[2] "Because your divine account includes no discussion about nearby possible worlds wherein God does not exist (how shocking), you infer you can have no reason to consider them?" [Correct; i ...[text shortened]... h; afterwards, we could have relaxed in the well appointed courtyard or taken a leisurely walk.]

When you are constantly being told by multiple people that your posts are unclear then the
problem is almost certainly with you.

Write clearer posts, make your points explicit and not implicit, and don't assume that people
know what it is you are thinking.



I don't think you comprehend the idea of a thought experiment.

LemmonJello isn't asking you if a universe actually exists that was not made by your god.

LemmonJello is asking IF a universe were to exist that was not made by a god, how similar
could it be to this one. And what is your reasoning.


It doesn't matter that you don't believe such a universe exists, it's a hypothetical, what if,
thought experiment.

Do you get it now?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I guess I don't know what you mean by "considerations?"

By 'considerations' I mean evidential or epistemic reasons for the claim at issue, or reasons in virtue of which one should think that there are no possible worlds wherein your God does not exist. If that is indeed the claim you are making, then I presume you have reasons why you think that is the case...so what are those reasons? If on the other hand you have no such reasons to offer, then it would be a head-scratcher as to why you are making the claim.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by LemonJello
[1] "So you expected me to reach that incredibly bizarre inference on my own?" [with your above average intellect, yes]

[2] "Because your divine account includes no discussion about nearby possible worlds wherein God does not exist (how shocking), you infer you can have no reason to consider them?" [Correct; i ...[text shortened]... h; afterwards, we could have relaxed in the well appointed courtyard or taken a leisurely walk.]

with your above average intellect, yes

I'm honored that you think my intellect is above average; but it should go without saying that persons with above average intellect are supposed to come to reasonable inferences, not incredibly bizarre ones.

Correct; if God had created other worlds and wanted us to be aware of them, He would have revealed sufficient information to inform us. I have no need or reason to presume to question or second guess the Sovereignty or Person or Plan of God

I'm not asking you to question or second guess.... I'm just asking you to do a thought experiment. If somone asks you to imagine a world wherein your God does not exist, it is beyond inane for you to respond that, well, your God didn't create any such worlds so you have no reason to so imagine...that should be met with looks of stupefaction. Perhaps you do not have any good reasons to do this thought experiment...but it surely would not be so in virtue of the rationale you provided.

No. God respects the privacy and volition of human beings, His Integrity (Justice and Righteousness) would have been compromised if He had provided what LemonJello hypothetically suggested

?????

Would have been nice if you could have enjoyed a Bowl of New England Clam Chowder with me today for lunch; afterwards, we could have relaxed in the well appointed courtyard or taken a leisurely walk.

That does sound nice.

Originally posted by LemonJello
By 'considerations' I mean evidential or epistemic reasons for the claim at issue, or reasons in virtue of which one should think that there are no possible worlds wherein your God does not exist. If that is indeed the claim you are making, then I presume you have reasons why you think that is the case...so what are those reasons? If on the other hand y ...[text shortened]... no such reasons to offer, then it would be a head-scratcher as to why you are making the claim.

Ah.
Yes.

This might be a bit circuitous, so let me know if I get too far afield.

I have both personal experience as well as (what I consider to be) evidential reasons to back my belief in a God who is responsible for all there is.

Like you and anyone else reading this, I am a person. I have an organ within my body which is capable of naming itself and many other things. That organ's many functions can be charted using chemical interactions and other disciplines attached to numbers and formulas. But what cannot be explained is how that organ functions. It's development and even its abilities are both beyond its own ability to comprehend.

So I have a personality and it seems to be emanating from this incredible organ which defies anyone's ability to wholly understand or explain. Despite all of my personal smartiness, I am at a loss to explain how my personality came to be. And from everything I've ever read or heard, no one else has been able to explain how personality came to be, either.

As a result of my limited understanding, I don't immediately look for an outside answer, but I certainly cannot rule it out, either. In looking outside, however, no matter where I look in the universe, I do not see anything which looks remotely capable of imparting personality. What I do see is an incredibly diverse and yet cohesive universe, one which appears to be following rules as though it were reading a playbook--- and executing the plays precisely without deviation.
This outside-of-me stuff (despite its lack of personality) makes me think there is a mind to its existence.

• My personality didn't create itself, cannot be explained
• There doesn't appear to be personality anywhere in the universe, except on this planet, among mankind
• The universe appears to be following a precise set of rules

And then, I hear what the Bible claims. These claims explain a lot of what I see in the bullet points above. But can I trust the Bible?
After all of the tests I put it to came back in the affirmative, I concluded the God spoke of in its pages is the God of the Universe, that outside of Him there are no other gods.

Does that answer your question?