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It is amazing how much derided the Roman Catholic Church is by Christians of other sects.
This is not deriding the Roman Catholic Church. This is careful Bible analysis with a realistic and frank assessment of the influence of the degradation of Christiandom.
In the book of Revelation the RCC is depicted as a Mother - the Mother of prostitutes (Rev. 17:5). This shows the realistic historical fact that She spawned off many sects LIKE herself. And it is not easy for Christians to rid themselves of her influence.
"And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and gilded with gold and precious stone and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of the abominations and the unclean things of her fornication;
And upon her forehead a name was written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, The Mother of the Prostitutes and the Abominations of the earth. "
Being the old "Mother of the Prostitutes" means there are many daughters who may have come out from her but to one degree or another are like her.
For over 1500 years, 3/4 of its' total existence, the Roman Catholic Church was the one and only Christian Church. Other small sects were considered heresy.
As I said I am not involving in Catholic bashing. Gods people are still in her as is seen in the call from heaven for His people to come out from her when she is judged in the end times along with the city of Rome.
For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the fury of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the power of her luxury.
And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, Come out of her My people, that you may not participate in her sins, and you may not receive of her plagues.
For her sins have been poled up to heaven, and God has remembered her wrongs. (Rev. 18:3-5)
So the revelation of the Bible is that though she is corrupt Gods people by the millions are trapped in her, involved in her, and are called to come out on the day Antichrist destroys the Roman Catholic Church.
Come out of her My people indicates the just as Babylon captured the Israelites in the old testament age so also for centuries multitudes of Gods believers in Christ have been carried away into the confusion of the RCC - captive and needing to return to the Christian Good Land of the normal church life.
Almost all of your "Christian heritage" is Catholic in origin.
You are saying what I just said, much. The RCC is called the Mother of prostitutes. The protestant churches and the private churches and the state churches came out of her.
To one degree or another it is difficult for her spawned off children to be completely free from her influence.
But the church Christ builds cannot be defeated as He promised. She shall be triumphant regardless of this long journey of apostasy and recovery.
I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. (Matt. 16:18b)
You are eager to try to locate RCC bashing. But this was a short post with a focus. And the overall realistic picture is shown in the Bible concerning the history of the Christian church on earth.
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So the Mother of the prostitutes has certain aspects revealed in John's vision.
And the woman was clothed in purpose and scarlot ... (v4a)
This speaks of her worldly royalty and dignity as Jesus was clothed in a mock royalty in John 19:2-3.
The color purple is a blend of blue and red; it signifies the blending of heavenly things with earthly. This is the appearance of the apostate Roman Church.- footnote 4(1) in the Recovery Version New Testament for Rev. 17:4.
... and gilded with gold and precious stone and pearls
The final Wife of the Lamb, the New Jerusalem is constituted with gold, precious stones, and gates of pearl. The fact that these things are also in the Mother of Prostitutes shows that she does have something of the church associated with her.
Gold signifies the divine nature. But here she is only gilded with gold whereas the New Jerusalem is a solid gold mountain. This means something of God's nature is in the mixture of the corrupted Roman Church.
The gold is only lightly gilded upon her for show. The RCC has true believers which are shown off in a gilded way for advertisement.
She is also lightly gilded with precious stones. The New Jerusalem has a wall adorned with twelve manner of precious stones. This represents the transformed human beings.
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Just the divine nature of God is not altogether absent from the mixture of the apostate church so also many actual saved believers are lightly gilded upon her for advertisement. She can always boast that she HAS God within and HAS saved believers of God within.
Both are only gilded upon her. In the darkness of this age this gilding is deceptive. The New Jerusalem though as Christs bride is solidly constituted with the divine nature and built up thoroughly with the transformed believers.
The Mother of Prostitutes is also gilded with pearls. The pearls speak of Christ pouring out His life as an oyster at the bottom of the sea pours a secretion of liquid around an offending particle to change it into pearl.
The light gilding upon the RCC involves also the fact that some salvation of Christ has occurred to many of her constituents. But it is not a solid constitution but a light superficial gilding - an advertisement.
The RCC can always boast that within her are true believers with the Father's divine nature, the believers as saved, and the work of Christ's salvation. But it is mostly outward gilding rather than solid thorough constitution. It is advertisement.
... having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the unclean things of her fornication.
As the gold is the divine nature of the God above so also is the cup in her hand. Outwardly it is of the divine nature of God. Yet inwardly there is contained corruption, degradation, confusion, mixture, and apostasy. So the situation is really mixed.
In the Roman Catholic Church there is undoubtedly something of God's nature as a receptacle.. But within the receptacle are abominable things of her sins.
The very unclean mixture of the nature of God with the worldly sinful things of superstition and corruption is an abomination to God.
And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I marveled, seeing her, with great marvel. (Rev. 17:6)
Historically the RCC persecuted true Christians in her Inquisitions. So the situation is quite mixed. She is related to God's nature yet is filled with the abomination of persecuting to death many real believers in Christ. She is intoxicated and drunk in a stupor over her history of murdering true Christians in her Inquisitions.
John marveled because he could not believe that the church would be degraded to such an extent. This was astounding to him - the vision of the Mother of Prostitutes having something of God yet so utterly corrupted.
@sonship saidWhere is the Roman Catholic Church mentioned in Revelation 17:5? Or are you saying that it is your personal opinion that Revelation 17:5 is depicting the Roman Catholic Church?
In the book of Revelation the RCC is depicted as a Mother - the Mother of prostitutes (Rev. 17:5).
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@secondson saidIn reality that ain’t possible??
"...Christianity clearly links back to previous religions..."
Superficially maybe, if one massages the information enough, but in reality that ain't possible.
Are you seriously suggesting Christianity (or any teaching, cultural movement, whatever) originated and exists in a vacuum?
Any teacher today cannot possibly discuss any subject without being influenced, even subjectively, by developments in society, such as feminism, human rights (as opposed to slavery), ecology etc, all of which were non-subjects in Biblical times.
So yes, it would have been impossible for Paul (and the other apostles) not to have been influenced by then current world affairs.
To what extent, in what manner, is, of course, debatable. But to claim that such influence “ain’t possible” is factually incorrect.
@sonship saidYes please - to debunk!
To debunk or not to debunk . That is the question.
James White barely squeezes out to unbunk Rob Bells Jesus copycat of conspiracy theories.
I am glad that James White responds to Rob Bell, because Rob describes my own position as clearly as possible. I am also part of the Emerging Church, which James White so glibly dismisses.
The position of Reformed Baptists (and yourself, KJ, secondson etc) is summed up in Rob Bell’s book “Love wins” something like this (God speaking, and I paraphrase slightly from memory):
My child, I love you with a complete and everlasting love. I sent my son to die for your sins, and I want you to be with me forever.
However, you must first say the magic formula, which is “Jesus, please forgive me my sins. I accept you as my Personal Saviour” or similar words to that effect.
If you don’t do that, I will roast you in hell, where you will be tormented with pain that you cannot possibly imagine, for ever and ever and ever. No reprieve.
So now, my child, .what will it be?
This is the God of James White and his ilk. It is the picture of god that I (and Rob Bell et al) totally reject and despise, in fact I believe it is slanderous and heretical.
But you and your fellow Fundamentalist Christians believe it is a kind of god that you can market here on RHP.
Shame on you!
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This is the God of James White and his ilk. It is the picture of god that I (and Rob Bell et al) totally reject and despise, in fact I believe it is slanderous and heretical.
But you and your fellow Fundamentalist Christians believe it is a kind of god that you can market here on RHP.
Shame on you!
Shame on me? For what? Are you expecting me to OWN your lampooning caricature as a "fundamental" of the Gospel?
Well, setting aside your obvious caricature, you understand that God's love does not cause Him to relinquish His everlasting righteousness?
Are you unhappy because Christians see in God's salvation both His eternal love and His eternal unshakable righteousness working and coordinating TOGETHER?
Are you arguing that for the sake of His love for sinners like me, He should GIVE UP His everlasting and eternal perfect Rightness and Holiness, discarding them FOREVERMORE, because He cannot stand to bring sins into a just accounting ?
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This is the God of James White and his ilk. It is the picture of god that I (and Rob Bell et al) totally reject and despise, in fact I believe it is slanderous and heretical.
The "this" there was your strawman caricature, which was easy to knockdown.
If you say you are of an emerging Church it is not so easy to knockdown the words coming out of Christ's mouth as it is to pushover the caricature coming out of your mouth.
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So let's examine Caljust's lampoon which is intended to be my "fundamental" of the Gospel I believe.
My child, I love you with a complete and everlasting love. I sent my son to die for your sins, and I want you to be with me forever.
Well, God does desire to impart into humans eternal life. But as they are in their fallen state from Adam, He and they are completely incompatible.
And He doesn't change. SO THEN if God wants forgiven sinners to be with Him forever THEY have to be transformed to be like Jesus Christ.
And this His covenant is assured will accomplish before the eternal age begins.
Because whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers. (Rom. 8:29)
His salvation must transform His children. He is able to save them to the uttermost to the very image of His Son Jesus Christ.
The one grain fell into the ground to die and bear fruit of much fruit like the original grained that died.
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. (John 12:24)
The eternal purpose of God is fulfilled in salvation. That is to mass produce sons of God as a corporate Body of Christ.
However, you must first say the magic formula, which is “Jesus, please forgive me my sins. I accept you as my Personal Saviour” or similar words to that effect.
Caljust is saying that Romans 10:9 is the practice of magic.
This is agreeing with the Triune God to do what He will not FORCE upon you. You willingly from your free will invite Him to be your Lord and Savior.
That if you confess with your mouth, Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
For with the heart man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth man confesses unto salvation. (Rom. 10:9,10) [/b]
Shame on me Caljust? You show your contempt for God's graciousness by calling this the practice of magic ?
If you don’t do that, I will roast you in hell, where you will be tormented with pain that you cannot possibly imagine, for ever and ever and ever. No reprieve.
The unreconciled will roast in the collapsing of their self love unto itself like a black hole. They will disintegrate with becoming more and more like the Original Self Lover - Satan.
The saved are conformed to the image of Christ in eternity.
It must be that the lost are conformed more and more to the image of their leader, Satan who wanted nothing to do with God.
Do you want to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ?
Or do you want to be conformed to think, feel, act like Satan the everlasting enemy of God?
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@sonship
OK, so you got hung up on my use of the word “magic”.
Scratch that word, I take it back. It was a figure of speech.
Replace it with the words “unless you repeat the Christianising formula, which is......etc “
My quote was in no way a caricature. It is exactly what is being told to a raw potential convert, who does not have the biblical concepts of grace, holiness and justification on his or her fingertips.
All they hear (and all you say, maybe in more words - a LOT more words) is “give your heart to Jesus or go to hell”.
No caricature - current, and very sad, reality.
And that doctrine IS really as bad as it sounds.
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OK, so you got hung up on my use of the word “magic”.
It sounded to me like a copying of FMF's criticism of "thought crimes" of not believing.
Like, to speak VAIN words which are meaningless.
Scratch that word, I take it back. It was a figure of speech.
Will do.
Replace it with the words “unless you repeat the Christianising formula, which is......etc “
Sigh. If Jesus was not a REAL PERSON, then maybe whatever words you would like to substitute instead in your lampooning manner might make some point I suppose.
But the exhortation of Paul is based upon the truth that Jesus IS Lord and Jesus IS raised from the dead.
And I think if I pursue you further in your "emerging Church" requirement for salvation, I MIGHT find that you are nearly not as universal or broad or wide as this instruction is from Paul.
I might find that your concept of entrance into salvation is much more narrow then confess with your mouth Lord Jesus and believe in your heart God has raised Him from the dead.
Is there a Statement of Belief or a concise Statement of Faith you would like to refer me to for the Emerging Church ?
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Caljust,
Please let me compare Romans 10:9 to the Statement of How One is Saved from this Emerging Church you speak of. Any kind of representative exhortation about coming into salvation ?
My quote was in no way a caricature. It is exactly what is being told to a raw potential convert, who does not have the biblical concepts of grace, holiness and justification on his or her fingertips.
I don't know many Christian spreading the Good News in exactly that way anymore. And I know thousands of Christians.
Now there are some tracts that I do not approve of.
But they are rather old.
The fact is that hell is pretty much a subject that quite many Christians seek to AVOID bringing up in their announcing the Gospel.
Some notable evangelical Christians have distanced themselves from talking about it.
My opinion is that Timothy Keller speaks of such things effectively.
It is not my belief that it is HARD to avoid eternal punishment.
It is not my belief that I should expect that God is unaware of many factors regarding opportunity to hear the Gospel.
I think you have to talk to Christians one at a time on something like this and not make blanket generalizations.
All they hear (and all you say, maybe in more words - a LOT more words) is “give your heart to Jesus or go to hell”.
No, no, I'm not going to let you get away with that.
List 20 threads that I have started going back twelve years or so. And point out which ones were dedicated to eternal punishment in hell.
I wrote a lot of things on this Forum about many other aspects of the Christian life.
You, I THOUGHT ANYWAY, ASKED about living the truth. I went on and on about living the truth with no mention of eternal punishment.
And you whined that it was too wordy. So what gives?