@sonship saidNo it is not. This is another “have you stopped beating your wife” type of questions.Instead of God and his word being the final authority on truth and error, or right and wrong, Unitarian Universalists subject God and his word to their understanding, feeling, and reason.
Would that paragraph be fair and accurate of your attitude as you examine these things in the Bible with me ?
Your quote asks whether human reason is more important than the word of god. No, of course it never can be, because god is infinite, never to be conceived by human minds.
But your paragraph (and you) postulate that the Bible is the hand-written direct word of god, which of course it isn’t.
The Quran is said by Muslims to be the actual authentic word of god, handed down from heaven directly to Mohamed. Maybe this passage refers to that Word of God?
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No it is not. This is another “have you stopped beating your wife” type of questions.
I don't think it was a loaded question. The essence of the question is here:
Is this description of your attitude fair
"Human reason and experience should be the final authority in determining spiritual truth," is perhaps the most revealing of the character of Unitarian Universalists. Instead of God and his word being the final authority on truth and error, or right and wrong, Unitarian Universalists subject God and his word to their understanding, feeling, and reason.
I will take your aversion to the question to be - a NO, human reason does not transcend the word of God.
Your quote asks whether human reason is more important than the word of god.
That is right - TO YOU a Universalist / Unitarian - is it?
Look, the other Unitarian I have conversed with here is Divegeester. He has often almost astounded me as to how readily he rejects words right out of the mouth of Christ because they just did not come up to HIS concept of what God should be.
Almost like an old fashion Catholic - "I don't CARE what the Bible SAYS. My tradition says THIS...."
So I thought to ask you up front. Are you going to be the same way as he?
No, of course it never can be, because god is infinite, never to be conceived by human minds.
But your paragraph (and you) postulate that the Bible is the hand-written direct word of god, which of course it isn’t.
Would you quote me that I said it was the hand-written direct word of God? I mean as in copying from a Dictaphone or Tape Recorder.
Surely you don't think my concept of Inspiration is DICTACTION.
The Bible is God's speaking to man, yet it carries often the style and personality traits of various writers who were moved by the Holy Spirit under inspiration to give us God's word.
No, I do not regard the 66 books of the Bible in the same way the Moslem regards the DICTATED messages delivered, supposedly, to Mohammed.
I see in the word of God - history, poetry, wisdom, songs, along with some direct "Thus says the Lord," prophecies, parables, allegories, teachings, with also personal style,, references to non-canonical writings, and even the giving of the opinions of the servants of God here and there.
By the way, Mohammed first thought he was getting messages from demons when the first dictations of the Quran came to him supposedly in a cave. Two women in his family life persuaded him to keep receiving the messages.
He was almost about to commit suicide because of them.
@sonship
You are playing with words.
Yes, you DO take the Bible as the verbally inspired word of god. Every word in its place, and every word equally important. That is pretty much the same as dictation, only in other words.
And yes, your question to me was pretty loaded. What you were basically saying is: “do you, as a human being, think you are cleverer than this book WHICH IS THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD. “ You are begging the question.
Maybe, one day, if I have nothing better to do we could have a discussion on how the Bible came about, who was involved in the choices of what constituted the canon, etc. But maybe not.
Btw, for the record, I believe the Bible is an incredibly important book, lots of valuable teachings on how to conduct our lives, lots of writings by saints who should definitely be taken seriously, lots of interesting history which is very valuable to understand the development of the Jewish nation, lots of the world’s most beautiful poetry, etc etc.
But the literal, handed-down-by-god verbal text - no. We will agree to differ on that.
You are playing with words.
Yes, you DO take the Bible as the verbally inspired word of god. Every word in its place, and every word equally important. That is pretty much the same as dictation, only in other words.
No. I think that is simply believing as the writer of Hebrews said about God speaking in many ways.
In many portions and in many ways, God, having spoken of old to the fathers in the prophets,
Has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son, ... (Heb. 1:1,2a)
And yes, your question to me was pretty loaded. What you were basically saying is: “do you, as a human being, think you are cleverer than this book WHICH IS THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD. “ You are begging the question.
Maybe, one day, if I have nothing better to do we could have a discussion on how the Bible came about, who was involved in the choices of what constituted the canon, etc. But maybe not. [/quote]
I don't see how choices concerning the canon of either the Old Testament or New has much to do with it.
I don't believe the canon is an authoritative list of books.
I believe the canon is a list of authoritative books.
There's a difference. And I believe the Spirit of God led the people of God to recognize the authoritatively inspired books - a process guided by the Holy Spirit.
Btw, for the record, I believe the Bible is an incredibly important book, lots of valuable teachings on how to conduct our lives, lots of writings by saints who should definitely be taken seriously, lots of interesting history which is very valuable to understand the development of the Jewish nation, lots of the world’s most beautiful poetry, etc etc.
And this indicates to me that the question was not loaded. But your attitude is pretty much that what counts more is your opinion rather than the oracles of God.
Heaven and earth will pass away. But My words will not pass away. - Jesus.
More than just "important."
But the literal, handed-down-by-god verbal text - no. We will agree to differ on that.
We will NOT agree that you misrepresent my belief.
" In many portions and in many ways, God, having spoken of old to the fathers in the prophets, has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, through Whom also He made the universe." (Heb. 1:1,2)
Not all His way of speaking was by means of a mechanical dictation.
@sonship
I have thought about this quote of yours below a bit more, and maybe I owe you a more complete answer.
Human reason and experience should be the final authority in determining spiritual truth," is perhaps the most revealing of the character of Unitarian Universalists. Instead of God and his word being the final authority on truth and error, or right and wrong, Unitarian Universalists subject God and his word to their understanding, feeling, and reason.
Here is how I would respond:
Yes, human reason and experience are key attributes that are necessary to judge between what many people propose is their particular “Word of God.”
There are many and various documents that claim to be authoritative scriptures, and clear insights, logical reasoning and experience are required to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Yes, some scriptures are more helpful than others. Yes, some can be seen as more important than others in assisting mankind in their continuing evolution. But certain characteristics will be found to be common to all authentic scriptures. These are love, compasssion, integrity, humility, thankfulness, generosity and concern for the weak and scorned. When you find these atributes, take note, because it is the Eternal Spirit speaking.
One more thing: Can you understand (as has been pointed out numerous times) that you cannot prove the veracity of the Bible from within the Bible itself! Even the Jews called that “testifying about yourself”, and they rejected such testimony as worthless.
For example, if you take Peter’s statement of all scripture being inspired, etc, then you must also accept the statements in documents like the Book of Mormon, the Quran and others as being proof that they are authentic, for each of those books makes that same claim about themselves.
That is why we desperately need those qualities which you seem to spurn and dismiss (intelligent reasoning and experience) to get as close as we can to what is truth.
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Here is how I would respond:
Yes, human reason and experience are key attributes that are necessary to judge between what many people propose is their particular “Word of God.”
I think I agree with this.
But I would not go so far as to say "the Word of God" is really an illusion and all we HAVE is different people's version of THEIR "Word of God."
Short of taking that step, I certainly would say Gods bestowing upon man the ability to reason is not completely set aside in matters pertaining to His revelation.
There are many and various documents that claim to be authoritative scriptures, and clear insights, logical reasoning and experience are required to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Yes, and also the guidance of the Spirit of God and the Spirit touched conscience of the inquirer.
There are two Greek words which translate into our English word. They are logos and rhema. Have you ever considered the difference and distinction between the logos - word of God and the rhema - word of God ?
I was helped by others to appreciate the difference which if you ask I can share with you a portion.
Caljust,
Yes, some scriptures are more helpful than others. Yes, some can be seen as more important than others in assisting mankind in their continuing evolution. But certain characteristics will be found to be common to all authentic scriptures. These are love, compassion, integrity, humility, thankfulness, generosity and concern for the weak and scorned. When you find these atributes, take note, because it is the Eternal Spirit speaking.
Guess what? You get the last word on this post today.
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Caljust,
One more thing: Can you understand (as has been pointed out numerous times) that you cannot prove the veracity of the Bible from within the Bible itself! Even the Jews called that “testifying about yourself”, and they rejected such testimony as worthless.
Well, Caljust. I would muse on that a little and not answer quickly.
John Frame has impressed me somewhat by saying that ANY worldview or ANY philosophy of any type is involved in circular reasoning.
I've been thinking about that for some time now.
But you see, IF that is so, the Word of God is probably legitimate circular reasoning. Why? Because God is the beginning and the end, source and destination, the origin and consummation of all reality.
FROM Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him are all things.
I am not completely decided. But it could be that the legitimate circular reasoning would be the revelation of God.
Anyway, things like the fulfillment of prophecy often is verification of God speaking beyond human interference or fabrication.
Do you believe that there is fulfilled prophecy in the Bible ?
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Caljust,
For example, if you take Peter’s statement of all scripture being inspired, etc, then you must also accept the statements in documents like the Book of Mormon, the Quran and others as being proof that they are authentic, for each of those books makes that same claim about themselves.
No, I don't think have to.
Actually, I don't HAVE TO just because the Apostle Peter said the Scriptures are given by inspiration of God SOLELY . I can consider that with accumulating OTHER evidence of this.
If 100% assurity is not reached, I certainly have enough assurance to believe I am on the RIGHT TRACK to trust the Bible.
Do you have 100% proof that the universe is not 15 minutes old?
Do you have 100% proof that the earth is not standing still with all the universe moving around IT?
I think to have complete proof you would have to know completely everything - omniscience. And only God claims that.
So I have the word of God as adequately sufficient for me to trust in as much as the Spirit of God enlightens my inner eyes to see what is most pertinent to His will for me.
Behind the living word there is also the living God to guide.
And there are the living saints of God whose FRUITS let me have assurance that I am probably on the right track.
-Removed-Again, you misunderstand what is being said. Comprehension poor.
I quoted that text NOT as MY proof of Reincarnation, but to show those Christians (like you and sonship) who take every word literally, that here you may have a problem.
I clearly said that I find it “interesting” that even the Bible (which, to remind you again, I do not take literally myself, but many people do) refers to it.
Is that clear enough?
Now maybe you will react to my question:
1. Do you believe every word in the Bible?
2. If no, then no problem. But if yes, what do you do with this passage?