Todays Bible Readings

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
I see that God has failed to gift you the ability to spell. Perhaps you could ask Santa next time.

It is called a type-o error for typing to fast.

Originally posted by RBHILL
It is called a type-o error for typing to fast.

I see that God has failed to gift you a brain. Perhaps you could ask the Wizard next.

Originally posted by xpoferens
Right, we shouldn't be ashamed of the Scriptures, after all, we believe they are God's Words.

However, just because it is written it doesn't mean God approved it; far the opposite in this case.

God doesn't portray history as man do. He doesn't remove from historical records all bad parts and keep all good parts. Biblical "heroes" had flaws, they were ...[text shortened]... r father; [b]and he knew not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

Regards[/b]

So are you going to sleep with your daughter now? Or perhaps you already do?

Originally posted by Wajoma
Since it's Sunday, time for some family values.

This from Genesis 19

32 Come, let's make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve our father's seed."

33 They made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father. He didn't know when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 It came to p ...[text shortened]... th child by their father.

Guess it's supposed to be uplifting....I just feel sick.

When you sit down to a big turkey feast, do you hunt for bones to choke on?

There are 150 Psalms showing the faithfulness, mercy, steadfastness and love of God. Why would you open a discussion of today's Bible reading and hunt for something which makes you sick? Have you read any of those 150 Psalms?

Actually, in context the story of Lot and his daughters is helpful to many of us. Here are some points which are helpful about the story in its full context:


1.) Lot was a righteous man, so the New Testament tells us. But he was not a victorious righteous man. He was a defeated righteous man. This should be a lesson to us. We may be forgiven and believing in God yet in our daily life defeated in our dullness, our worldly and befuddled condition.

2.) When Lot left Abraham he casts his eyes on the valley where Sodom was. The Bible says it looked like the Garden of Eden to him.

Looks can be deceptive. When a sinner first sees the life of sin he may think it looks like heaven itself. He may think a life of living in lust will be a Paradise. The valley of Sodom and Gamorrah "And Lot lifted up his eyes and saw the entire plain of the Jordon, that is was well watered everywhere ... like the garden of Jehovah" (Gen. 12:10)

The life of sin looks to sinners like Paradise. In the end it is pain and disgrace. It can be disgrace not only for the sinner but for his family as well eventually. This is really a bitter experience.

3.) Lot also represents God's mercy. For Abraham prayed for Lot. Abraham would not let God rest from sparing ANY who were still worthy to be saved in Sodom.

4.) Lot's daughters probably behaved according to what they learned in the society that they lived in. This was a bitter lesson. You think that it is only you who want to live any way you want to. But your children will often be influenced by your poor choice.

5.) Lot was too befuddled to know what was going on. If you go to a room where everyone is eating garlic at first it may smell very strong. It in fact may stink. But after a period of time you become dull to it. You become use to it.

Lot's senses were dulled, made befuddled by living in Sodom. Perhaps as he slept the noises and commotion around him just sounded like the familiar happinings of the night life of Sodom. He did nor realise that he had taken Sodom out with him in his own family.

Sodom put Lot in a stupor of dull befuddlement. Sodom will do the same to people today. Their conscience and sensibilities will become dull and stupified.

This is a ugly story yet a candid one. The Bible is realistic. It is candid. It is honest for our sakes. And there are many spiritually helpful things about the story of Lot and his family for the pursuer of God.

The Bible is realistic.

HA HA HA HA HA!

there are many spiritually helpful things about the story of Lot and his family for the pursuer of God.

Like if faced with a horny mob give them your virgin daughters? Like don't disobey a stupid command from God or he'll turn you into salt? Like don't hump your drunk dad or you'll get pregnant?

Originally posted by jaywill
When you sit down to a big turkey feast, do you hunt for bones to choke on?

There are 150 Psalms showing the faithfulness, mercy, steadfastness and love of God. Why would you open a discussion of today's Bible reading and hunt for something which makes you sick? Have you read any of those 150 Psalms?

Actually, in context the story of Lot and his y spiritually helpful things about the story of Lot and his family for the pursuer of God.

There is no such thing as “Sodom” here; there are only people. The important moral story occurs before the destruction of Sodom (and, harshly, Lot’s wife)—to wit, a just person (a tzaddik) is called upon to challenge even God on moral issues (and God doesn’t come off too well in that story):

__________________________________

> Genesis 18:16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked toward Sodom; and Abraham went with them to set them on their way.
17 YHVH said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,
18 seeing that Abraham shall become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 No, for I have chosen him, that he may charge his children and his household after him to keep the way of YHVH by doing righteousness and justice; so that YHVH may bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."
20 Then YHVH said, "How great is the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah and how very grave their sin!
21 I must go down and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me; and if not, I will know."
22 So the men turned from there, and went toward Sodom, while Abraham remained standing before YHVH.
23 Then Abraham came near and said, "Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?
24 Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will you then sweep away the place and not forgive it for the fifty righteous who are in it?
25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?"
26 And YHVH said, "If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will forgive the whole place for their sake."
27 Abraham answered, "Let me take it upon myself to speak to YHVH, I who am but dust and ashes.
28 Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking? Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?" And he said, "I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there."
29 Again he spoke to him, "Suppose forty are found there." He answered, "For the sake of forty I will not do it."
30 Then he said, "Oh do not let YHVH be angry if I speak. Suppose thirty are found there." He answered, "I will not do it, if I find thirty there."
31 He said, "Let me take it upon myself to speak to YHVH. Suppose twenty are found there." He answered, "For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it."
32 Then he said, "Oh do not let YHVH be angry if I speak just once more. Suppose ten are found there." He answered, "For the sake of ten I will not destroy it."
33 And YHVH went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.

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Without revisiting all my old arguments about Jewish hermeneutics in general being much more open than Christian hermeneutics tends to be, there are some interesting features of this story, that I’ll just offer in outline—

(1) Note that Abraham is willing to argue with God, without even being asked his opinion—and even to lecture God on justice! “Far be it from you...!” Abraham fairly thunders at his God. This may seem alien to many Christians, but in Judaism it is not. You are expected to make your argument, even against God; argument “for the sake of heaven” (i.e., for the sake of truth and justice) is a sacred act. Traditional Jewish Torah study itself takes the form of argument.

(2) God implicitly accepts Abraham’s argument, and trumps him: “If I find in Sodom some fifty righteous men, I will spare everyone for their sake.” Now the negotiations begin... They get down to 10, which appears to be God’s final offer, for he was finished speaking to Abraham and went on his way.

One commentator (I think it was in the Talmud, but I can’t recall for sure) proposed that Abraham thought there were at least 10 good people in the city, including Lot and his family!

Now, Gen. 19:3 indicates that everyone in Sodom, “to the last man” were there to rape Lot’s guests. So maybe there weren’t 10...? [But, what about the women and the children?!]

(3) In an interesting, and perhaps poignant, commentary, Jewish scholar Abraham Joshua Heschel interprets the phrase in verse 33, v’avrahim shab le’m’komo, rather poignantly as “And Abraham is still standing there!”—in his place (makom). For Abraham, the argument is not over...

Now, I am not going to lobby for any particular reading of this story—and, for me, that is what there are: stories. But what I am trying to point out—the only thing I’m trying to point out— is that, in the Hebrew tradition, it is not unthinkable to challenge God, in fact a tzaddik, a righteous person, may be required to do so. Abraham was required to do so. To simply accept what the text says without making your own moral argument is a violation.

And from that perspective, though I do not claim to be a tzaddik, but only a benoni, I will not try to bend any of these stories to make what seems to me unjust just, simply because it comes from God’s putative action or command...

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Lot's daughters probably behaved according to what they learned in the society that they lived in. This was a bitter lesson. You think that it is only you who want to live any way you want to. But your children will often be influenced by your poor choice.

What “bitter lesson?” For whom? Does the text speak of a “bitter lesson?” There is no condemnation in the text of Lot or Lot’s daughters. I argue, following Whodey somewhat (though ascribing no responsibility to him for my errors), that Lot’s daughters “sacrificed” their “honor” to perform what was viewed as a duty to carry on the family line. Whether right or wrong, perhaps their action was at least noble?

So, you are called upon to make a moral argument: were Lot’s daughters justified in their actions, or not? Why or why not? You are not permitted to “submit” to the text as an escape, if you want to stand as a tzaddik. Neither Judaism nor Christianity are religions of submission, but of covenant (well, at least Judaism). You are called upon to bring your own torah to the Torah; that is part of the risk of faith!

Your "midrash" has Lot's daughters "behaving according to what they learned in the society that they lived in." Which society was that? Not Sodom.

You say that the NT labels Lot as a "righteous man" but not a "victorious" man. In what way was he righteous? The only NT reference I can find is 2 Peter 2:7, where the Greek word is not dikaios (righteous, upright, good, just), but kataponeo, mistreated or troubled (KJV: “vexed” ).

I don’t want you to miss my point here in this exegetical morass, Jaywill—you cannot abrogate your own moral judgment by submitting to, or simply defending, the text. Spin your torah with the Torah, by all means—you have some skill—but be willing to thunder at Torah, and at God, like Abraham; and don’t just be a submitter, like Lot.

____________________________

I have spent to much time trying to argue in the NT lately—this feels more at home...

Originally posted by telerion
[b]The Bible is realistic.

HA HA HA HA HA!

there are many spiritually helpful things about the story of Lot and his family for the pursuer of God.

Like if faced with a horny mob give them your virgin daughters? Like don't disobey a stupid command from God or he'll turn you into salt? Like don't hump your drunk dad or you'll get pregnant?[/b]

That last one has been a great help in my life let me tell you.

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
I see that God has failed to gift you a brain. Perhaps you could ask the Wizard next.

The only true wise people are those that accept Christ to avoid going to hell.

Originally posted by vistesd
There is no such thing as “Sodom” here; there are only people. The important moral story occurs before the destruction of Sodom (and, harshly, Lot’s wife)—to wit, a just person (a tzaddik) is called upon to challenge even God on moral issues (and God doesn’t come off too well in that story):

__________________________________

> G ...[text shortened]... rying to argue in the NT lately—this feels more at home...

vistesd.

================================
There is no such thing as “Sodom” here; there are only people. The important moral story occurs before the destruction of Sodom (and, harshly, Lot’s wife)—to wit, a just person (a tzaddik) is called upon to challenge even God on moral issues (and God doesn’t come off too well in that story):
================================

Don’t you think that when Sodom is mentioned it refers mainly to the people? What is your point by saying there is no Sodom refered to but only people?

”Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimestone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven” (Gen. 18:24)

As for “the important moral story” … I grant that we can derive from this story many more than one moral. That’s what makes the Bible so useful. I didn’t say there is nothing else morally or spiritually helpful except what I shared.

Why you say God doesn’t come off too well morally in the story is a mystery to me. So why do you say God morally failed? Why do you suggest that God didn’t met your level of morality?

Abraham brings his number of people down from 50 to 10 to see if God would spare the city for the sake of ten. How many were brought out of Sodom before He destroyed it? And those He had to have practically dragged away.

He brought out four – Lot, his wife, and his two daughters. Since ten were not found I guess He destroyed the city and mercifully rescued four out. One of them left physically. But her heart was still back there as exposed by her rebellious backward gaze. She was turned to a pillar of salt. That leaves three. And two of them commited an abomination of incest. That leaves one. And he was stone drunk for two nights.

So what’s your complaint. Basically one befuddled and hesitant righteous man was found in Sodom, not ten. So the city was not spared.

Abraham tells God [n]”Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly?” (Gen. 18:25)[/b]. Do you accuse the Judge of all the earth of being unjust?

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Note that Abraham is willing to argue with God, without even being asked his opinion—and even to lecture God on justice! “Far be it from you...!” Abraham fairly thunders at his God.
This may seem alien to many Christians, but in Judaism it is not.
======================

It is not alien to the Christian you are speaking to here. This was an excellent example of man’s effective intercession before God. Taking God’s word and God’s character as a basis for our prayer is not strange to Christians by any means.

David said “according to your word” many times in his petitions to God in Psalm 119. And Paul in the New Testament prays ”according to …” the attributes of God. The so called “Lord’s Prayer” is fortified with requests according to what we expect from God.

I see no cause to say the Jews understand this but the Christians don’t.


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You are expected to make your argument, even against God; argument “for the sake of heaven” (i.e., for the sake of truth and justice) is a sacred act. Traditional Jewish Torah study itself takes the form of argument.
====================

I agree that this is impressive. I don’t think this changes basically at all from the old covenant to the new covenant. It is simply effective to pray according to what God has said and what God is.

===========================
(2) God implicitly accepts Abraham’s argument, and trumps him: “If I find in Sodom some fifty righteous men, I will spare everyone for their sake.” Now the negotiations begin... They get down to 10, which appears to be God’s final offer, for he was finished speaking to Abraham and went on his way.
==========================

Whether it was a “final offer” is not too clear. There is nothing indicating that God commanded Abraham not to ask Him again another time. Of his own occurred Abraham stopped pressing God. There is nothing in the record even indicating that God was annoyed.

Where do you see God tell Abraham that one more offer was the final offer?


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One commentator (I think it was in the Talmud, but I can’t recall for sure) proposed that Abraham thought there were at least 10 good people in the city, including Lot and his family!
===========================

I agree basically. I think Abraham may have thought that the number 10 should cover his poor nephew’s household.

His sons in law did not take Lot seriously. They thought he mocked. By living in such a place he lost some amount of respect.


================================
19:3 indicates that everyone in Sodom, “to the last man” were there to rape Lot’s guests. So maybe there weren’t 10...? [But, what about the women and the children?!]

(3) In an interesting, and perhaps poignant, commentary, Jewish scholar Abraham Joshua Heschel interprets the phrase in verse 33, v’avrahim shab le’m’komo, rather poignantly as “And Abraham is still standing there!”—in his place (makom). For Abraham, the argument is not over...
===========================

He was in the presence of God. He loved to linger and remain in God’s presence.

============================
Now, I am not going to lobby for any particular reading of this story—and, for me, that is what there are: stories. But what I am trying to point out—the only thing I’m trying to point out— is that, in the Hebrew tradition, it is not unthinkable to challenge God, in fact a tzaddik, a righteous person, may be required to do so. Abraham was required to do so. To simply accept what the text says without making your own moral argument is a violation.
========================

I think the word of God is an exhaustless gold mine of wisdom. There are untold riches within the story. Why don’t we explore other meaningful things concerning it?

==========================
And from that perspective, though I do not claim to be a tzaddik, but only a benoni, I will not try to bend any of these stories to make what seems to me unjust just, simply because it comes from God’s putative action or command...
==========================

I will wait to see just what it is about chapter 19 that strikes you as unrighteousness with God. You’ll have to explain.



___________________________
===========================
What “bitter lesson?” For whom?
===========================

Lot was with Abraham the man of God. Had he remained with Abraham I am sure that his end would have been more positive. If you had traveled with the patriarch Abraham would you not have wanted to remain with him and his God?

Lot first moved close to Sodom. Eventually he could not resist being sucked into the society. Only if you think the loss of his wife, sons in laws, and the incest of his daughters were not painful to him, could you surmise that his experience was not bitter.

The lesson is for those who seek to follow God. Positionally he was righteous in an objective standing. But dispositionally he was defeated by the world and the sinful society. It vexed his soul to see what went on in that society. Peter tells us the same:

”And having reduced to ashes the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, condemned them to ruin, having set them as an example to those who intend to live an ungodly life,

And rescued righteous Lot, who had been oppressed by the licentious manner of life of the lawless,

For the righteous man, who settled down among them, in seeing and hearing tormented his righteous soul day after day with their lawless works” (2 Peter 2:6-8).
The Apostle Peter tells describes Lot as righteous three times in this passage. Though he was righteous his soul was tormented by having to witness the things of that society. Based upon this I say that the loss of his wife and the incest of his daughters was a bitter experience for him.

If his soul was tormented by the lawless acts of the men of Sodom, why do you think the things which befell his wife and daughters with himself, were not bitter experiences?

Do you imagine that it was sweet for him to see his wife turn into a pillar of salt? Do you think it was a sweet experience for him to realize that his daughers had become pregnant through their own father whilst he was in a drunken stupor?

I think he may eventually have regretted the day he ever departed from traveling with Abraham the prophet and his uncle.


==================
Does the text speak of a “bitter lesson?” There is no condemnation in the text of Lot or Lot’s daughters. I argue, following Whodey somewhat (though ascribing no responsibility to him for my errors), that Lot’s daughters “sacrificed” their “honor” to perform what was viewed as a duty to carry on the family line. Whether right or wrong, perhaps their action was at least noble?
==================

It is somewhat similar to what happened to Judah at the deception of daughter in law Tamar. That has not escaped my notice over the years.
I have no comment for you right now. Except I would point out that the descendents of the incest of Lot with his daughers produced enemies of Israel – the Moabites and the Amonites. I think ther writer purposely draws this connection.

I see your point and have no other comment at the moment.
======================
So, you are called upon to make a moral argument: were Lot’s daughters justified in their actions, or not? Why or why not? You are not permitted to “submit” to the text as an escape, if you want to stand as a tzaddik. Neither Judaism nor Christianity are religions of submission, but of covenant (well, at least Judaism). You are called upon to bring your own torah to the Torah; that is part of the risk of faith!
=============================

Well, the city of Sodom was not very thankful to God. In previous years God had sent Abraham the prophet to rescue them when they were all taken away captive. Their rebellion against God is a sad contrast to God’s goodness to them wh...

Continued:

Well, the city of Sodom was not very thankful to God. In previous years God had sent Abraham the prophet to rescue them when they were all taken away captive. Their rebellion against God is a sad contrast to God’s goodness to them when their families were kidnapped by Chedolaomer in Genesis chapter 14. God strengthened Abraham to rescue the whole city of Sodom.

They seemed to have forgotten God’s mercy and turned to utterly rebel against the God of nature in their unbridled lust.

Aside from this Genesis shows Abraham living by faith and in fellowship with God. Lot his nephew gets into an argument with his uncle Abraham about material possessions and splits off to leave him. It is spiritually and morally downhill for Lot from that time. He moves close to Sodom probably realizing that it is nowhere for a saint of God to live. But he eventually gets pulled into the society and even becomes a prominent member. He nearly sacrifices his daughters to a brutal mob raping. His sons in laws don’t take him seriously about God’s coming judgement. He looses his wife because even though she physically came out of Sodom, her heart was still there. And then there is the experience with his daughters in a dark cave while he is drunk.

There is not too much encouraging about Lot’s life. In contrast to Abraham’s it is a stark juxtaposition. It is important to some of us Christians because it shows the result of separating ourselves from God’s prophet because of the distraction of even legitimate material needs. Satan is subtle. And he used material riches to seduce Lot from continuing along with the blessed patriarch.

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Your "midrash" has Lot's daughters "behaving according to what they learned in the society that they lived in." Which society was that? Not Sodom.
=================

Where else would you think they had their upbringing?

===============
You say that the NT labels Lot as a "righteous man" but not a "victorious" man. In what way was he righteous? The only NT reference I can find is 2 Peter 2:7, where the Greek word is not dikaios (righteous, upright, good, just), but kataponeo, mistreated or troubled (KJV: “vexed” ).
================

Peter says that he was a righteous man. Three times he uses the word righteous in regard to Lot. That is more than sufficient for me to also say that Lot was a righteous man.

I think because he believed in God he was forgiven and justified by his faith. That placed him in a righteous standing before God.

But God ever seeks to wrought something of His ways into the fabric of man’s personality. This is not positional. This is dispositional. Dispositionally Lot was defeated and drawn into the sinful society.

If I said he was a backslider you might understand. This is based on my belief that he was healthiest when he remained with his godly uncle Abraham. I believe that all those of Abraham’s household were trained in the belief in the God of glory Who had appeared to Abraham. He must have taught Lot his nephew many things about God.
The draw of material things caused Lot to split off from this positive spiritual influence. One might argue that he would have done so eventually anyway. But I believe that Lot’s end shows that his immaturity in the things of God could not keep him from backsliding and ending as he did.

Abraham lived in a tent as a God seeking sojourner. Lot left the tent life of a consecrated sojourner and was sucked into the most evil place. It all began with Lot’s choosing what appeared to him as a good place.

Abraham took the inferior land. But Abraham had God deeply. Can you not see the lesson? It was better for Abraham to take the inferior portion and remain following God then it was for Lot to follow the apparent appearance of worldly wealth.

I think you should consider Lot more in the light of Abraham. Lot’s testimony is there as a contrast to the main godly example – Abraham. You must notice the contrast in Genesis in the characters.

==============
I don’t want you to miss my point here in this exegetical morass, Jaywill—you cannot abrogate your own moral judgment by submitting to, or simply defending, the text. Spin your torah with the Torah, by all means—you have some skill—but be willing to thunder at Torah, and at God, like Abraham; and don’t just be a submitter, like Lot.
===============

Abraham didn’t really thunder at God. He was humble and meek in his intercession. By the way, I think it was absolutely initiated by God not by Abraham. Who was the one who said that He could not hide what He was about to do from Abraham? It was God.

So God sought out Abraham for the purpose of having an intercessor. And Abraham’s intercession was so good because He did so based upon God’s nature.
I think you warp the story a little if you say that Abraham thundered at God. And I think more praise should go to God. For God sought out Abraham expressly for the purpose of skill as an intecessor. I think between the lines what we see is God seeking Abraham to pray to God so that God might rescue Lot from Sodom.

In this regard Abraham is a type of Jesus Christ. Christ interceds for the sins of the whole world. And He is the eternal Mediator between God and man.

” … our Savior God, Who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:3-5)

”Because He poured out His life into death and was numbered with the trangressors, Yet He alone bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressors.” (Isaiah 53:12b)

Originally posted by RBHILL
The only true wise people are those that accept Christ to avoid going to hell.

So that was your reason for accepting Christ? To avoid punishment?

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
So that was your reason for accepting Christ? To avoid punishment?

Christ came to set us free from sin. To have freedom/victory over sin.

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
So that was your reason for accepting Christ? To avoid punishment?

Why does there have to be only one reason?

Did you get a career job only to avoid unemployment?

Suggested Today's Bible Reading:

"All things are pure to the pure; yet to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. " (Titus 1:15)

Originally posted by jaywill
Why does there have to be only one reason?

Did you get a career job only to avoid unemployment?

LOL