Originally posted by RJHinds Posting a synopsis is not as good as the real thing and it takes too much time and no one like to read those long posts anyway. Looking at a video is more fun.
I agree with Suzianne.
I never look at a video in an OP unless the poster says at least SOMETHING about what the point is - and what position he or she takes.
I suggest that there be a new special Forum called "Nitpicking details on inscrutable scriptures" in order to give RJH, sonship, and that new 19 year old a place of their own to wallow in pages and pages of useless conjectures about what the Trinity means.
I mean, three threads (still current) so far dedicated to this ONE topic did not result in any enlightenment, so why start a new one??
Originally posted by shavixmir So like... is it the Father, the Son... and the Holy ghost?
Or is it the Father.... the Son and the Holy ghost?
Jist wonderin'...
The Father is God. The Word was with God as God and came in the Flesh as the only begotten Son of the Father. The Holy Spirit is God and proceeds from the Father as the Holy Ghost. We say the Father, the Son (the Word), and the Holy Ghost. These three are one God. This is similar to man being body, soul, and spirit.
Originally posted by shavixmir Yeah... you are aware, though, of the filioque?
Does the Holy spirit come from God? Or does it come from God and Jesus?
So, is it God and Jesus... and then the Holy spirit?
Or is it God... and then Jesus and the Holy spirit?
So long as we're talking holy trinity here, it seems complete madness not to address this little issue...
It's not like it influenced history on a grand scale or anything...
I was not aware of that word "filioque' so I looked it up on Wikipedia. Here is what I found:
Filioque: Latin for "and (from) the Son", is a phrase included in some forms of the Nicene Creed but not others, and which has been the subject of great controversy between Eastern and Western churches. The controversial phrase is shown here in italics:
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified.
The Filioque is included in the form of the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed used in most Western Christian churches since at least the 6th century. It was accepted by the popes only in 1014, and is rejected by the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Churches. It was not in the Greek text of this Creed, attributed to the Second Ecumenical Council (the First Council of Constantinople), which says that the Holy Spirit proceeds "from the Father", without additions of any kind, such as "and the Son" or "alone".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque
The Holy Bible says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from God the Father. But it also says that both God the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit to believers. We must remember that Yahshua (Jesus) is the intermediary between God and man because the Son is both man and God.
This is one of the critical verses:
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Originally posted by RJHinds The Father is God. The Word was with God as God and came in the Flesh as the only begotten Son of the Father. The Holy Spirit is God and proceeds from the Father as the Holy Ghost. [b]We say the Father, the Son (the Word), and the Holy Ghost. These three are one God. This is similar to man being body, soul, and spirit.[/b]
"This is similar to man being body, soul, and spirit."
Originally posted by galveston75 "This is similar to man being body, soul, and spirit."
Really? How exactly? Think this out.....
I did not say exactly, but similar. I don't know, but I believe this may be part of what is meant by man being made in the image of God. However, it is just a guess on my part. I don't believe I could back it up with scripture.
Originally posted by RJHinds I was not aware of that word "filioque' so I looked it up on Wikipedia. Here is what I found:
Filioque: Latin for "and (from) the Son", is a phrase included in some forms of the Nicene Creed but not others, and which has been the subject of great controversy between Eastern and Western churches. The controversial phrase is shown here in italics:
...[text shortened]... eedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:26 King James Version (KJV)
So you believe in the Latin (basically Charlemagne's) interpretation.
Which verse are you quoting that both God the father and the Son send the Holy spirit forth?
1) The word does not exist in the Bible...anywhere.
2) Never mentioned by any of the writers of the Bible.
3) Never a teaching by anyone in the Bible.
4) Never taught by Jesus.
5) Never taught by the Apostles.
6) God's people all the way down to Jesus and the last of the apostles were a monotheistic people. Only worshipped 1 God.
7) Many nations that were condemned by God or even destroyed by his people believed in many triune sets of gods.
8) The first mention of any such beliefs as the trinity in history, were of these paganistic peoples that formulated this trinity doctrine that God condemned and has never approved of up till this day.
9) Jesus said many things about himself compared to God that included statements that showed he was inferior to his Father and never even thought of competing with him in power or the right to rule.
10) No where in the Bible that speaks of Jesus's position now in heaven compares him equal to God but portrays him as sitting at his Fathers right hand.
11) The trinity expresses that all 3 beings or facets of this 3 in 1 godhead are all equal, all knowing and all powerful. Not a teaching anywhere in the Bible but in fact the Bible clearly says Jesus is in a inferior position next to his Father.
12) The trinity was not "adopted" into the christain churches until 350+ years after Jesus died. If it were a teaching of Christ, why did it take so long to be "adopted" into the church? It should have been there already and a clear teaching established by Jesus while he was on earth.
The trinity teaching by all the facts available that anyone can see by the simplest research at hand, is it has a serious pagan beginning and is not taught by anyone in the Bible.
Satan had this filtered into the churches to dilute the truth in the Bible and to take away the true identities of Jehovah and his son Jesus and what the holy spirit is, not who the holy spirit is.
This belief causes confusion on whom one is to direct his worship too and the obligations we have to teach others about them. This confusion makes most who attend these churches that teach this doctrine confused and lose the importance of truth and makes them weak in their knowledge and unable to explain their beliefs such as the trinity to others and in turn makes them just a seat warmer at their churches.
Originally posted by RJHinds I did not say exactly, but similar. I don't know, but I believe this may be part of what is meant by man being made in the image of God. However, it is just a guess on my part. I don't believe I could back it up with scripture.
Originally posted by galveston75 Just a few simply facts of the trinity.
1) The word does not exist in the Bible...anywhere.
2) Never mentioned by any of the writers of the Bible.
3) Never a teaching by anyone in the Bible.
4) Never taught by Jesus.
5) Never taught by the Apostles.
6) God's people all the way down to Jesus and the last of the apostles were a monotheist ...[text shortened]... liefs such as the trinity to others and in turn makes them just a seat warmer at their churches.
Well will you at least admit that the Watchtower Society is wrong when they say Jesus was once Michael the archangel? That was never taught or mentioned in the holy Bible.
You know that the Word became the Son (John 1), so why doesn't the following two verses teach the trinity?
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(matthew 28:19 KJV)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Originally posted by sonship When I call "O Lord Jesus" and in the next breath call "Abba Father, eternal Father" I touch the same Person.
Exactly. I actually don't think you are a trinitarian, I think that you think you are but this statement tells me you are not. In all the exchanges I've had with trinitarians this is the core of my issue. There is ONE entity (as you put it here "person" ) in the Godhead manifested in three ways - not three different distinct persons.
To my son I am his Father, to my Dad I am his son, to my sister I am her brother - but I am ONE person.
Originally posted by divegeester Exactly. I actually don't think you are a trinitarian, I think that you think you are but this statement tells me you are not. In all the exchanges I've had with trinitarians this is the core of my issue. There is ONE entity (as you put it here "person" ) in the Godhead manifested in three ways - not three different distinct persons.
To my son I am his Father, to my Dad I am his son, to my sister I am her brother - but I am ONE person.
Heresies
Modalism
Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.
Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).
Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God (i.e., who God is). "Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus... modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
30 Jul '14 09:11
Trinity in the Old Testament
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