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Originally posted by @fmfJesus Christ addressed the moral bankruptcy of conspicuous virtue in His Sermon on the Mount:
True virtue is doing the right thing even when others can't see you or don't know.
Do you agree?
What are the moral dimensions of conspicuous virtue?
“Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”
(Matthew 6:1-21)
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Originally posted by @fmfThis would only make sense in a world with moral absolutes. If there are no moral absolutes what is the 'right thing' really? Within a framework of moral relativism why would anyone need to do 'the right thing' in the first place?
True virtue is doing the right thing even when others can't see you or don't know.
Do you agree?
What are the moral dimensions of conspicuous virtue?
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Originally posted by @fmfOf course. The opposite of, “Do as I say, not as I do,” and reflected in the well-known sayings, “Practice what you preach” and “Lead by example.”
Does effective leadership sometimes require conspicuous and demonstrated virtue rather than talk-the-talk moralizing?
Of course, motivation is key, which is what Jesus Christ was getting at - the hypocrisy of putting on a show in public and behaving like an ogre in private. I think that’s why the Lord looks on the heart. The heart reveals motivation and intent.
13 May 18
Originally posted by @fmfAs for me, I don't agree entirely. Virtuous people will indeed do the right thing even when others can't see them doing it, but this does not mean that virtuous deeds, by definition, need to be secret or inconspicuous.
True virtue is doing the right thing even when others can't see you or don't know. Do you agree?
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Originally posted by @fmfBecker made an interesting point. It’d be the “right thing” in their eyes, but without moral absolutes, the “right thing” to them could be whatever they thought was convenient. Not much virtue in that.
As for me, I don't agree entirely. Virtuous people will indeed do the right thing even when others can't see them doing it, but this does not mean that virtuous deeds, by definition, need to be secret or inconspicuous.
13 May 18
Originally posted by @fmfYes, effective leadership involves being seen to do the right thing at times, but not necessarily always. The visibility of doing the right thing is coincidental to the motivation, but in effective leadership, it is important that followers see th3 right thing being done on occasion.
Does effective leadership sometimes require conspicuous and demonstrated virtue rather than talk-the-talk moralizing?
13 May 18
Originally posted by @romans1009But even with moral absolutes, the “right thing” to them could be whatever they thought was convenient. Not much virtue in that.
Becker made an interesting point. It’d be the “right thing” in their eyes, but without moral absolutes, the “right thing” to them could be whatever they thought was convenient. Not much virtue in that.
You heard me.
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16 May 18
2 edits
Originally posted by @apathist
But even with moral absolutes, the “right thing” to them could be whatever they thought was convenient. Not much virtue in that.
You heard me.
But even with moral absolutes, the “right thing” to them could be whatever they thought was convenient. Not much virtue in that.
You heard me.
Heard you. And religious folks with absolutes can do some rotten things. We saw that early in the Bible with the murderer - religious Cain.
The difference is that with the Christian world view there is a final judgment - divine enforcement.
With the atheist / naturalist worldview there is none.
Regardless of what you've done, you'll just melt peacefully into the dust of oblivion. No accounting to an ultimate authoritative judge - naturalistic powerlessness to enforce.
16 May 18
Originally posted by @sonshipDon't you believe that Christians are "saved" even if they "sin"? What happens at this "final judgment" for Christians, then? What is this "accounting to an ultimate authoritative judge"? Haven't you been preaching here for years that once a Christian has been "saved" by faith, this cannot be undone, even by your so-called "authoritative judge"?
The difference is that with the Christian world view there is a final judgment - divine enforcement.
With the atheist / naturalist worldview there is none.
Regardless of what you've done, you'll just melt peacefully into the dust of oblivion. No accounting to an ultimate authoritative judge - naturalistic powerlessness to enforce.
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16 May 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @fmfThere is an accounting to Jesus when one dies - such accounting is not related to salvation or where one spends eternity.
Don't you believe that Christians are "saved" even if they "sin"? What happens at this "final judgment" for Christians, then? What is this "accounting to an ultimate authoritative judge"? Haven't you been preaching here for years that once a Christian has been "saved" by faith, this cannot be undone, even by your so-called "authoritative judge"?
Edit: Believers give an accounting of their lives at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Those who rejected Jesus Christ go to a separate judgment known as the Great White Throne Judgment.
Where one spends eternity is determined by himself or herself while they are on the earth - see John 3:16 and Romans 10:9.
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Originally posted by @fmfAh, but you have also seen me preach this:
Don't you believe that Christians are "saved" even if they "sin"? What happens at this "final judgment" for Christians, then? What is this "accounting to an ultimate authoritative judge"? Haven't you been preaching here for years that once a Christian has been "saved" by faith, this cannot be undone, even by your so-called "authoritative judge"?
There is something that the saved person gets.
And there is something that NO saved person will ever get.
1.) The saved get to be forgiven of every sin they ever committed.
2.) No saved person gets to remain forever the same kind of person he was as when he sinned.
That's God's way.
Next time you get to be God, you can do it your way.
16 May 18
Originally posted by @sonshipSo if a person who declares themselves to be "saved" but does remain the same kind of person [in terms of "sinning"] as he or she was before being "saved", it can be undone by "God"?
1.) The saved get to be forgiven of every sin they ever committed.
2.) No saved person gets to remain forever the same kind of person he was as when he sinned.