Uncertainty or...?

Originally posted by twhitehead
We can go that route, but first you must throw out your whole thought experiment.

[b]You see what you can't logically show is how God just knowing something changes the nature of the event.
I think I can.

Try this thought experiment...

Imagine that God doesn't exist (100% ) and life, the universe is Godless (you won't find this difficult ...[text shortened]... re and appears to modify its history from a random undetermined path to a predetermined one.

You see what you can't logically show is how God just knowing something changes the nature of the event. KM


I think I can.-----WHITEY---------


Go on then!!!!!!

Originally posted by twhitehead
We can go that route, but first you must throw out your whole thought experiment.

[b]You see what you can't logically show is how God just knowing something changes the nature of the event.
I think I can.

Try this thought experiment...

Imagine that God doesn't exist (100% ) and life, the universe is Godless (you won't find this difficult ...[text shortened]... re and appears to modify its history from a random undetermined path to a predetermined one.

Quite simply you have created a second timeline and placed the current universe in the past on your new timeline. Thus all events in the current universe are now history and thus essentially predetermined. ----------whitey---------

Firstly , I have not created a second timeline , just eternity . Secondly , how does that fact that the events in the universe are history prove they are PRE determined.

Since you have yet to prove how that fact that you know many past events of the universe proves they must have been pre determined then the jury is still out on this one. How does you knowing what OJ Simpson did years ago prove it was predetermined? I have asked you this many times ---and nothing has been forthcoming.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You misunderstand what the pre-unified theories actually are because you keep placing God on a timeline pretending that he "foresees" events or "predicts" them (as I have been at pains to point out)

But that is irrelevant for this particular point. You wish to justify some pre-unified theories, which you admit are incompatible with each other by claiming that it can be overlooked just like the pre-unified theories in some branches of physics are overlooked.

If I misunderstood your pre-unified theory then maybe it is the fault of your initial thought experiment in which a time traveler does interact with a time line and does 'predict' an event.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Firstly, I have not created a second timeline, just eternity.

Yes you did. I quote:
"Now , imagine I have a God machine that can create an omniscient , eternal God that does not interact with time . I switch on the machine and God is created . God immediately knows all quantum events."
Now it may not be clear to you, but in the above quote you have created a second time line external to the universe. In this second timeline there is:
Time 1. where knighty + God machine exist but not God.
Time 2. where knighty + God machine + God exist.
Note that this could not happen within our timeline as a so-called "eternal" being got created. One wonders of course what this "eternal" word means in this context. Another of your self inconsistent thought experiments perhaps?

Secondly , how does that fact that the events in the universe are history prove they are PRE determined.

Since you have yet to prove how that fact that you know many past events of the universe proves they must have been pre determined then the jury is still out on this one. How does you knowing what OJ Simpson did years ago prove it was predetermined? I have asked you this many times ---and nothing has been forthcoming.
I think I have tried to address it previously, but I will have another go.

The best way I can think of is to explain it via the use of a computer program analogy. I need to think about it a bit though and put it in a post of its own.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But that is irrelevant for this particular point. You wish to justify some pre-unified theories, which you admit are incompatible with each other by claiming that it can be overlooked just like the pre-unified theories in some branches of physics are overlooked.

If I misunderstood your pre-unified theory then maybe it is the fault of your initial thou ...[text shortened]... xperiment in which a time traveler does interact with a time line and does 'predict' an event.

In the original thought experiment the time traveller knows what will happen but he only knows this because it HAS happened. He knows the event will happen because for him it is a PAST event. If the event had not already happened then he would know nothing.

In this scenario it is the event that dictates the knowledge NOT the knowledge dictating the event. There is nothing about what the time traveller "knows" that forces or determines the event to be what it is.

Why? Because it is the event that is influencing and determining the knowledge of the event. There is no logical reason to assume that the quantum event is any less or more uncertain because all the time traveller has done is witnessed the event.

Originally posted by knightmeister
In the original thought experiment the time traveller knows what will happen but he only knows this because it HAS happened. He knows the event will happen because for him it is a PAST event. If the event had not already happened then he would know nothing.

In this scenario it is the event that dictates the knowledge NOT the knowledge dictating the ...[text shortened]...
Why? Because it is the event that is influencing and determining the knowledge of the event.

You are still not getting the point. It is not what the time traveler does or does not know that makes the event deterministic. It is the time travelers action of time-traveling that confirms that he lives in a deterministic universe.

There is no logical reason to assume that the quantum event is any less or more uncertain because all the time traveller has done is witnessed the event.
If it is possible for the time traveler to travel then events are deterministic so it is a logical conclusion that the event is predetermined ie certain.
Similarly, if God exists and knows the future then the future is predetermined. Not because God exists, nor because of what God knows, but because Gods existence and knowledge confirm (ie would only be possible) that our universe is deterministic in nature.

Let us look at the workings of a computer program.
A computer program is fully deterministic. If it is run on two different computers which are identical in every way, the outcome will always be the same. The outcome is essentially, predetermined and possibly even predictable. There is no such thing as a random number generator in computer science.
The only way to get randomness in a computer program is to inject the random number from an external source. For example one could use the exact milliseconds of the computers internal clock, however, any such solution violates the "identical computers" clause above.
So, in a closed computer software world, all events are predetermined and true randomness is impossible.

Thought experiment
Now suppose you are a virus, sitting in a computer and you receive a message from a human being (programmer). He tells you that he has run the computer for 3 days and his anti virus caught and killed you.
But he is sending you this message in the early stages of the program, ie as far as you the virus are concerned, the 3 days and death have not yet happened.
Think about that for a bit.
* Note that there are two timelines instantiated. A) the virus' timeline and B) the programmers timeline.
* If the programmer modified the program - it may now run differently.
* The programmers time has moved on, so if the program is rerun and receives input from its external environment, that input may be different and thus affect the outcome.
* If however the program remains totally unmodified and does not give different outcomes then:
1. The message from the programmer was always part of the program.
2. The program is totally deterministic and does not receive variable input from its external environment.

So how does this relate to the time-traveler scenario and God?
1. If time travel is possible without disrupting future events then we must live in a deterministic universe.
2. If God exists and knows all the events throughout time then we must live in a deterministic universe.

Our universe may in-fact be one of the multi verse scenarios where the universe is continually dividing down all possible paths- but that would preclude the existence of God.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You are still not getting the point. It is [b]not what the time traveler does or does not know that makes the event deterministic. It is the time travelers action of time-traveling that confirms that he lives in a deterministic universe.

There is no logical reason to assume that the quantum event is any less or more uncertain because all the ti ...[text shortened]... and knowledge confirm (ie would only be possible) that our universe is deterministic in nature.

If it is possible for the time traveler to travel then events are deterministic so it is a logical conclusion that the event is predetermined ie certain.===whitey====

I disagree because events being deterministic is only one way of events being certain to happen. The other way that one can be sure that an event will happen is because it HAS happened.

Try thinking of it this way. One thing we can say about a quantum event is this - something will certainly happen - a quantum particle will appear or not appear or do whatever they do etc. This much is certain (unless of course the universe ends) . So a timeline of events will be created one way or another.

So we know that there will be a timeline and that there will be only one timeline and whatever the uncertain quantum event is it will be what it is--- a fixed part of that timeline. However , this timeline does not have to be fixed "in advance" it can be fixing itself as it progresses and then once fixed it can be known.

Therefore , once the particle has done it's thing the event then becomes certain (because it happens NOT because it is pre-determined) but it is not certain at the point when it happens. At that point anything can happen BUT only one thing does happen and that is what makes the event part of the time line.

I would agree with you though that time travel into the past is impossible but God doesn't travel in time , he was not in time to start with. I only used the time traveller as a way of thinking about it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Let us look at the workings of a computer program.
A computer program is fully deterministic. If it is run on two different computers which are identical in every way, the outcome will always be the same. The outcome is essentially, predetermined and possibly even predictable. There is no such thing as a random number generator in computer science.
The ...[text shortened]... s continually dividing down all possible paths- but that would preclude the existence of God.

But your scenario starts out with the premise of a closed deterministic system which Heisenbergs Uncertainty principle suggests that we don't live in.

In short all you have said is that the universe is deterministic because it is.

I absolutely agree that if the universe is totally deterministic then free will or uncertainty cannot be.

The point is that God doesn't time travel in essence. He is not "on " the timeline but in a different dimension seeing all points in time simultaneaously. He is both at the point before the event and after it also. It's a bit like you looking sideways at a "time ruler" I guess. You can scan the future , past , present but actually it's all just "present" for you. It's all a past event as well because it has happened already from your perspective.

It's like how you look at the past . You know what Hitler is going to do on the timeline. And you know what he will do in advance of him doing it. You already have a level of omniscience about what Hitler will do and what he will choose. But this knowledge of yours proves nothing about whether those choices are inevitable or not. It only proves that that was what he chose(determined or otherwise).

Once you have grasped that you knowledge of what Hitler will do in HIS future is dependent on him doing it you get a mini glimpse of how God knows your future as a past event because in a way you are kind of like God to Hitler. Now imagine that you are lifted out of time to a different dimesnion where you can see all time. I'm not saying it's easy but it gives you a glimpse.

Originally posted by knightmeister
So we know that there will be a timeline and that there will be only one timeline and whatever the uncertain quantum event is it will be what it is--- a fixed part of that timeline. However , this timeline does not have to be fixed "in advance" it can be fixing itself as it progresses and then once fixed it can be known.

I disagree. You do not actually know that there is only one timeline. If there is, it almost guarantees that the universe is deterministic. What then becomes the issue is whether or not information can ever travel back in time.

I think that one interesting way to look at quantum physics is to see it as multiple timelines. For example, a photon leaves point A. It travels outwards on various different paths on various different timelines. The photon is detected at point B. The reality we see is the result of all the timelines in which the photon got to point B. In fact one of the major and most confusing results of quantum mechanics is that the photon does not go on one particular path but does in fact go on every possible path - hence the 'wave nature' of light.
Maybe there are other timelines in which the photon never reached point B, but they are forever separated from us.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I disagree. You do not actually know that there is only one timeline. If there is, it almost guarantees that the universe is deterministic. What then becomes the issue is whether or not information can ever travel back in time.

I think that one interesting way to look at quantum physics is to see it as multiple timelines. For example, a photon leaves p ...[text shortened]... r timelines in which the photon never reached point B, but they are forever separated from us.

You do not actually know that there is only one timeline. If there is, it almost guarantees that the universe is deterministic. ---whitey---

True , we don't know but the model we have been basing the argument on generally assumes one timeline (unless you want to move the goalposts)

I wonder why you say that having only one timeline "almost" guarantees the universe is deterministic. It's as if somewhere you do actually realise that it's possible for an uncertain or partially free universe to produce only one timeline as well.

This is the essence of the issue. If there is only one whitey then whitey will do what he will do. BUT he can only live one life , he cannot choose life A and life B , only ONE of them will exist. The result could be that only one timeline (of whitey's choices) gets created and part of it could be created by whitey's free choices. If these choices were actually free then we would only know about one of them because the other choice can only exist if whitey chooses it. At the time whitey chooses it it could be a free choice (which is all one needs for free will to exist) but once he chooses it the choice is fixed because whitey has to choose something. That much is certain. A timeline will be created one way or another.

In theory a single timeline could be created in such a way that could be known by a being who was outside of time. The reason for this is because a deterministic universe and a free universe could produce the same result of one timeline. The fact that there is only one timeline proves nothing much , just as the fact that hitler did what he did proves that....erhem...he did it , free or otherwise. You cannot prove that it is 100% neccessary to have actaul multiple timelines to have multiple POTENTIAL timelines.

Originally posted by knightmeister
True , we don't know but the model we have been basing the argument on generally assumes one timeline (unless you want to move the goalposts)

My understanding was that we are discussing reality. Reality is therefore the goal posts. I personally have not ruled out multiple timelines as a possible reality.
It is true that your initial thought experiment assumed some things such as a single timeline and the possibility of time travel and my counter argument includes the fact that either of those assumptions may be false so any conclusion drawn may not actually apply to reality.

I wonder why you say that having only one timeline "almost" guarantees the universe is deterministic. It's as if somewhere you do actually realise that it's possible for an uncertain or partially free universe to produce only one timeline as well.
Its because I am having a hard time getting my head around the concept of determinism vs 'True Randomness'. We had the same issues come up in your threads on free will. My stance is in essence, that if you are going to pick option A then the potential for you picking option B simply does not exist. Your stance seems to be that the potential exists even if option B will not be picked.

However, I have a very different understanding of what constitutes free will. As long as I do not know the future, I still have free will even if it is more or less deterministic in nature. In fact I prefer some amount of determinism because I detest the thought of being subject to pure randomness.

I remember in the free will threads you detested both randomness and determinism and tried to invent a third possibility which is illogical since "randomness = not determinism".

Originally posted by twhitehead
My understanding was that we are discussing reality. Reality is therefore the goal posts. I personally have not ruled out multiple timelines as a possible reality.
It is true that your initial thought experiment assumed some things such as a single timeline and the possibility of time travel and my counter argument includes the fact that either of those ...[text shortened]... d to invent a third possibility which is illogical since "randomness = not determinism".

My stance is in essence, that if you are going to pick option A then the potential for you picking option B simply does not exist. Your stance seems to be that the potential exists even if option B will not be picked. ---whitey---

You don't understand. Option A or B are both potential outcomes at the point of choosing . Option A only becomes the future because it IS chosen. Until Option A or B is chosen it's impossible to know on our timeline what will be chosen . It's only after the choice that Option A becomes the reality because in the free will model the future is being shaped in the present moment as we go along.

From God's perpective he only knows that Option A HAS happened . Just as you know that Hitler chose to invade Poland but in Hitler's time frame the choice to invade Holland might have been a potentiality for all we know because we only know what he did.

Can you understand that God knows what you will do tomorrow(your time frame) because he has already seen you doing it (his perpsective)

Originally posted by knightmeister
You don't understand. Option A or B are both potential outcomes at the point of choosing . Option A only becomes the future because it IS chosen. Until Option A or B is chosen it's impossible to know on our timeline what will be chosen. It's only after the choice that Option A becomes the reality because in the free will model the future is being shaped in the present moment as we go along.

So, if you look very carefully at the highlighted sentence in your post, would you agree with me that time travel is impossible, and communications from God are also impossible?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So, if you look very carefully at the highlighted sentence in your post, would you agree with me that time travel is impossible, and communications from God are also impossible?

Are you really interested in understanding this concept ?

The premise of the whole hypothetical position assumes that God is God and as such is not part of our timeline but exists in a different dimension (eternity) . Time travel in our time dimension is impossible but we are not talking about a being who lives on our timeline are we. We are talking about a being whose relationship to time is very different.