@fmf saidA very interesting topic.
Is vengeance ever a right response to something?
Vengeance is a perfectly natural reaction to an action. It can be seen as the great balancer, or negative feedback in society.
Let's say my son gets tortured by a school bully, but never fights back by smashing his face. That bully will go on to torture other kids or even rape your daughter. But if my son had smashed his face, that action would have prevented countless future innocents from getting victimized.
Meanwhile governments and leaders generally hate the concept of revenge because it threatens their ability to abuse its citizens.
@bunnyknight saidIt might be interesting if you expand upon this.
Meanwhile governments and leaders generally hate the concept of revenge because it threatens their ability to abuse its citizens.
@bunnyknight saidAside from retribution or revenge [are they exactly synonymous when talking in philosophical terms?] punishment - when exacted justly - is also arguably about deterrence, the protection of society [incapacitation], restitution and rehabilitation.
Let's say my son gets tortured by a school bully, but never fights back by smashing his face. That bully will go on to torture other kids or even rape your daughter. But if my son had smashed his face, that action would have prevented countless future innocents from getting victimized.
In your scenario, your son smashing his bully's face may deter future torturing of your son by that bully but there wouldn't necessarily be any wider benefits for other people [potential victims of that bully or, indeed, other bullies.
@fmf saidThe natural temptation of leaders is power and wealth. As they acquire its addictive taste they start to take and take, and if this greed is not kept in check they will keep taking until the lives of citizens are so bad that chaos and violence erupts. When people get no justice and have nothing more to lose, they resort to pure revenge, and one thing the leaders really hate and fear is people blowing stuff up or causing unrest because if the social order collapses, their source of wealth and power is threatened.
It might be interesting if you expand upon this.
Meanwhile the leaders are free to destroy human lives under the cloak of a billion laws and regulations mostly made to benefit them.
In the end, the main point is this: If you hate revenge, then don't engage in any sort of injustice.
@bunnyknight said[leaders in power...] start to take and take
The natural temptation of leaders is power and wealth. As they acquire its addictive taste they start to take and take, and if this greed is not kept in check they will keep taking until the lives of citizens are so bad that chaos and violence erupts.
Are you talking about taxes?
@fmf saidYes, taxes are certainly one method. They start off reasonable and fair, then keep increasing to as much as possible until people rebel. For example, many people have been thrown out of their mortgage-free homes simply because they couldn't afford to pay absurd property taxes any longer. Meanwhile in some places over 70 percent of school property taxes were simply unaccounted for -- vanished into thin air.
[leaders in power...] start to take and take
Are you talking about taxes?
But there are many other methods to gouge and rob citizens, such as 20,000 dollar per year health care premiums; or arresting them on trivial victimless charges, then sticking them with huge fines, fees and asset confiscation.
And if that's not enough to send a normal person into a mad vengeful rage, throw in some alcohol and drugs, and you have a recipe for disaster.
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@bunnyknight saidWhat form of vengeance do you personally believe is morally justified in response to what you feel are excessive property taxes and health care premiums [for example]?
Yes, taxes are certainly one method. They start off reasonable and fair, then keep increasing to as much as possible until people rebel. For example, many people have been thrown out of their mortgage-free homes simply because they couldn't afford to pay absurd property taxes any longer. Meanwhile in some places over 70 percent of school property taxes were simply unaccounted for -- vanished into thin air.
@fmf saidPersonally, I would simply refuse to participate in the great injustice until it kills me. Then after I'm dead I would assume that your reaction to my death would be to violently kill everyone responsible for that injustice, and spare future innocents from the same death I suffered. If not, then the injustice will continue. In either case the universe won't care, just like it doesn't care when a hurricane kills 1000 children. Laws of nature and laws of physics will always prevail, no matter what you and I imagine 'morality' to be.
What form of vengeance do you personally believe is morally justified in response to what you feel are excessive property taxes and health care premiums [for example]?
@bunnyknight saidI think the punishment for not paying tax would at first be fines and if you didn't pay them and the overdue taxes, I think you would be imprisoned. I can't see how you would get executed for it.
Personally, I would simply refuse to participate in the great injustice until it kills me.
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@fmf saidGood question.
Is vengeance ever a right response to something?
Related are two that I have.
1.) Who has the ultimate authority to balance the scales of justice should there be an imbalance?
2.) Is there ever such a thing as forgiveness which is unrighteous?
My answers would be (including the first question)
1.) Vengeance could be the appropriate response to something.
2.) The ultimate Governor, Creator and Moral Authority - God, alone has the final right and responsibility to set in balance an imbalance in the scales of justice.
That is why He says "Vengeance is Mine, says the Lord. I will repay." (Deuteronomy 32:35; Romans 12:19)
3.) There could be forgiveness which is unrighteous. I think there could be a form of forgiveness which is not right and itself a crime. An overly liberal and sloppy permissive "forgiveness" could itself be a crime - a forgiveness which is unrighteous.
There could be a forgiveness which encourages the forgiven one to all the more double down on doing evil. That could be a form of unrighteous forgiveness imo.