Here is some food for thought. We all have a God and we all have a devil. That is, we all have within our belief constructs what is "good" for us and what is "bad" for us. This God and devil need not be an actual single entity, rather, it could be a group of people or a mindless object. For example, I find that politics often enters the picture in this respect. For liberals, corporations and the wealthy are at the root of our ills as where conservatives say that the ever expanding government and our ever expanding loss of freedoms as a result is the culprit to our ills. Of course, religion can be thrown in the mix with an actual "devil" and an actual "God" just to confuse the matter.
So what is your God and your devil? Does anyone here claim not to have one or the other? It is my assertion that we have an innate need for such a construct, and if it is lacking, it will be created. In fact, if one "devil" is thwarted or one God overthrown, new ones MUST be created for our psychological well being.
Originally posted by whodey Here is some food for thought. We all have a God and we all have a devil. That is, we all have within our belief constructs what is "good" for us and what is "bad" for us. This God and devil need not be an actual single entity, rather, it could be a group of people or a mindless object. For example, I find that politics often enters the picture in this re ...[text shortened]... rted or one God overthrown, new ones MUST be created for our psychological well being.
"God" and "Devil" are primitive, black-and-white concepts that do not always mesh well with reality, which is much more often shades of gray.
Few people or corporations are purely good, or purely evil. To use your example: An objective liberal would admit that corporations can do some good in providing jobs and making charitable contributions. An objective conservative would admit that some limits to freedom are necessary to prevent anarchy.
Our "psychological well being" is better off if we strive to maintain our objectivity, rather than forcing things and people to fit the "God" or "Devil" mold.
Originally posted by whodey Here is some food for thought. We all have a God and we all have a devil. That is, we all have within our belief constructs what is "good" for us and what is "bad" for us. This God and devil need not be an actual single entity, rather, it could be a group of people or a mindless object. For example, I find that politics often enters the picture in this re rted or one God overthrown, new ones MUST be created for our psychological well being.
new ones MUST be created for our psychological well being.
No, it seems to me that practices such as this are actually counteractive toward one's psychological well being. You may be right that we are disposed in some real way toward engaging in practices like this (after all, we are evolutionarily disposed to thinking strongly in terms of desert whether praiseworthy or blameworthy; and we are also disposed in some way toward generalizing). But, what I would point out to you is the following: absolutely nothing in your post actually supports such a conclusion as this: that such practices are conducive (indeed, stronger, you claim that they are in some sense necessary) to our psychological well being.
Originally posted by whodey So what is your God and your devil? Does anyone here claim not to have one or the other?
I don't think I have either. I cant think of anything that I blame specifically for my ills nor do I credit any one thing for my success. I certainly cant think of anything that I would label my 'God' or my 'Devil'. I might have misunderstood your point though.
a childish view in my thought, i do not blame the devil for me doing things that are sinful, its me who does it, so i take the blame, if i do good i just accept it as credit to my judgement day
Originally posted by SwissGambit "God" and "Devil" are primitive, black-and-white concepts that do not always mesh well with reality, which is much more often shades of gray.
Few people or corporations are purely good, or purely evil. To use your example: An objective liberal would admit that corporations can do some good in providing jobs and making charitable contributions. An obje r objectivity, rather than forcing things and people to fit the "God" or "Devil" mold.
Objectivity is an iillusion. We may strive for it and even attain it at times, but for the most part it is an illusion. We view the world through tainted glasses filled with preconcieved ideas and beliefs. This goes for both atheist and those of faith and it is why belief is so critical to how we interpret what is going on in the world.
No doubt, the world is a complex place. I don't think that this view is mutually exclusive to those who are not of faith. Take Job, for example, he was as perplexed about God and the Devil as modern man is who thinks everything is a shade of gray and without a God. Perhaps this is why those who are nonbelievers often insist that if there be a God, it should all be black and white and easy to understand. Everything should be logical and in order or otherwise it must all a bunch of bunk.
Originally posted by LemonJello [b]new ones MUST be created for our psychological well being.
No, it seems to me that practices such as this are actually counteractive toward one's psychological well being. You may be right that we are disposed in some real way toward engaging in practices like this (after all, we are evolutionarily disposed to thinking strongly in terms of dese ...[text shortened]... ed, stronger, you claim that they are in some sense necessary) to our psychological well being.[/b]
Nothing supports my assertions? What about human history. In every culture there are aspects of "us verses them". This may be along the lines of race, religion, economic status, political persuasions, etc. In addition, we all have ideas as to how the world could be made a better place. For example, I have read more than one post on these boards by atheists who seem to hold the notion that if only there were no religion, life would be much better for us all. For them, religion is the devil and secularism is their savior.
Originally posted by twhitehead I don't think I have either. I cant think of anything that I blame specifically for my ills nor do I credit any one thing for my success. I certainly cant think of anything that I would label my 'God' or my 'Devil'. I might have misunderstood your point though.
So you have no beliefs as to how this world could be made a better place nor ideas as to how it is so screwed up? You do think it is a screwed up place don't you?
Originally posted by whodey Objectivity is an iillusion. We may strive for it and even attain it at times, but for the most part it is an illusion. We view the world through tainted glasses filled with preconcieved ideas and beliefs. This goes for both atheist and those of faith and it is why belief is so critical to how we interpret what is going on in the world.
No doubt, the wo ...[text shortened]... nderstand. Everything should be logical and in order or otherwise it must all a bunch of bunk.
"Illusion" is the wrong word. If objectivity was an illusion, we could never attain it.
And why should personal belief preclude objectivity? Isn't it possible to step outside your own beliefs for a few minutes and view things from another perspective? Can't we admit that the opposition has made a good argument? I have seen examples of it here.
I don't think most non-believers insist that God/theism must be easy to understand. Rather, they think logical contradictions within a belief system [whether it be theistic or otherwise] ought to be resolved.
Originally posted by whodey Nothing supports my assertions? What about human history. In every culture there are aspects of "us verses them". This may be along the lines of race, religion, economic status, political persuasions, etc. In addition, we all have ideas as to how the world could be made a better place. For example, I have read more than one post on these boards by atheis ...[text shortened]... ld be much better for us all. For them, religion is the devil and secularism is their savior.
You habitually fail to understand the distinction between supporting a normative claim and supporting a descriptive claim. I don't care how many cultures throughout history you can point to that have, as a matter of descriptive fact, exhibited your god vs. devil mentality. That point really has nothing to do with supporting a normative claim that such behavior is in their best interests; or necessary or conducive to their psychological "well being"; or worthy of being valued. Your claim in the opening post that I singled out before is a normative one, and it remains one that you have not supported in any way.
Do you really not understand this simple difference? There is a big difference between saying that a certain behavior is common to a people (or that these people are naturally disposed toward it) and saying that such behavior is characteristically conducive; or necessary; or whatnot; for their psychological "well being".
Originally posted by whodey So you have no beliefs as to how this world could be made a better place nor ideas as to how it is so screwed up? You do think it is a screwed up place don't you?
Of course I think the world could be a better place and there is a whole host of things that I think could be better. I suspect I misunderstood your initial post, but after further reading it makes less and less sense.
There are many things I don't like or think are bad and many things I like and think are good and both come in varying degrees. But I don't call any of them 'God' or 'Devil' and I really don't think I should. There certainly isn't one overriding good thing or bad thing that stands out from the crowd, which seems to be what you are claiming is necessary for my psychological well being. Am I misunderstanding you, or going mad?
Originally posted by whodey Here is some food for thought. We all have a God and we all have a devil. That is, we all have within our belief constructs what is "good" for us and what is "bad" for us. This God and devil need not be an actual single entity, rather, it could be a group of people or a mindless object. For example, I find that politics often enters the picture in this re ...[text shortened]... rted or one God overthrown, new ones MUST be created for our psychological well being.
You speak only of Abrahamic faiths: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and to some extent Baha'i'ism. Other faiths (ie the Vedic faiths or Taoism) do not have these concepts.
Originally posted by SwissGambit "Illusion" is the wrong word. If objectivity was an illusion, we could never attain it.
And why should personal belief preclude objectivity? Isn't it possible to step outside your own beliefs for a few minutes and view things from another perspective? Can't we admit that the opposition has made a good argument? I have seen examples of it here.
I do ...[text shortened]... dictions within a belief system [whether it be theistic or otherwise] ought to be resolved.
I don't mean to say that objectivity is an illusion, rather, it is an illusion to think that we ever obtain it in its entirety.
Although it is possible to see other points of view, your own beliefs remain until that magical period where they are altered for one reason or another. Despite what beliefs you may have, assuming they are all "correct" are vision of reality still remains skewed.
We all have a God and we all have a devil
12 Mar '09 18:14
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