ToO supplied three quotations from noted thinkers.
Here are their quotes and my brief reply.
"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther. in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down. making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"
----- Soren Kierkegaard
"Paul....did not desire to know Christ....Paul shows us with what complete indifference the earthly life of Jesus was regarded....What is the significance for our faith and for our religious life, the fact that the Gospel of Paul is different from the Gospel of Jesus?....The attitude which Paul himself takes up towards the Gospel of Jesus is that he does not repeat it in the words of Jesus, and does not appeal to its authority....The fateful thing is that the Greek, the Catholic, and the Protestant theologies all contain the Gospel of Paul in a form which does not continue the Gospel of Jesus, but displaces it."
---- Albert Schweitzer
"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence: and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate therefore the gold from the dross; restore to him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.
---- Thomas Jefferson
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Welcome to the Forum Mr. Soren Kierkegaard .
"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple.
I agree that Jesus is the prototype. But brute imitation is not what the New Testament teaches. But that Christ is risen, alive, mysteriously available in His form as the Holy Spirit. And we are to receive Him Himself.
And the "imitation" is rather allowing the Spirit of the resurrected Christ to live in a blended way in us.
He told His disciples that in the day of resurrection they would know that He is in God and in them and they in Him. This is mingling and blending of our lives together with the raised Jesus.
"Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me. Because I live, you also shall live.
In that day you will know that I am in My Father and you in Me and I in you." (John 14:19,20)
This is true. I experience this.
But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner.
Read the epistles of Paul. He spoke of Christ the Redeemer. But he wrote quite a lot about Jesus Christ LIVING in His followers. Page after page ... ie.
"But if CHRIST IS IN YOU, ..." ( Rom. 8:9)
" ... the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory." (Col. 1:27)
"Do you not realize this about yourselves that JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor. 13:5)
" ... it is no longer I who live but CHRIST WHO LIVES IN ME ..." ( Gal. 2:20)
" My little children, with whom I travail again in birth until CHRIST IS FORMED IN YOU, ..." ( Gal. 4:19)
"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Eph. 3:17)
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain." (Phil 1:21)
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (Phil. 4:23)
" ... that we might present every man full grown in Christ; ..." ( Col. 1:28)
" ... to the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ ..." ( 1 Thess. 1:1)
"So that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thess. 1:12)
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all." ( 2 Thess, 3:18)
"But when it pleased God ... to reveal HIS SON IN ME that I might announce Him as the gospel among the Gentiles ..." (Gal. 1:16)
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers." (Gal. 6:18)
"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)
"Since you seek a proof of the Christ who is speaking in me, who is not weak unto you but is POWERFUL IN YOU." (2 Cor. 13:3)
"For which cause I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God WHICH IS IN YOU ..." ( 2 Tim. 1:6)
"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not out of us." (2 Cor. 4:7)
" ... this shall turn out to salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, ...." ( Phil. 1:19)
" .... Christ will be magnified in my body, whether through life or through death." (Phil. 1:20)
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you." (Phil. 4:23)
All these verses go beyond teaching only about the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. They emphasis Jesus Christ Himself living in the Christians supplying grace inwardly. This that the prototype might be living in them to conform them to Himself.
Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner.
The above examples from Paul show the nonsensical nature of Soren Kierkegaard's charge.
Now it may be true that such utterances are neglected by main stream Christianity.
That is NOT the fault of the Apostle Paul.
What Martin Luther. in his reformation, failed to realize is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul.
This is nonsense.
The 13 or so epistles of Paul clarified and established the Gospel of Christ.
And not much NEW did he teach. What he taught can be found in the Gospels.
Aside from talking about circumcision Jesus taught and Paul experienced and repeated.
Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ. Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down. making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ"
Soren Kierkegaard is blaming Paul for the neglect of much of his teachings in Christianity.
The church needs the proper teaching about the atoning redemption of Christ's death and the victorious living obtained through His resurrection and living IN the believers.
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On to some comment on Albert Schweitzer
"Paul....did not desire to know Christ....
This is just a slanderous lie.
" ... I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my lord, on account of whom i have suffered the loss of all things and count t hem as refuse that I may gain Christ ... ( Phil. 3:8)
He counts everything ELSE he had as a upstanding Jewish rabbi as dog food, dung, refuse IN COMPARISON to Jesus Christ. There was no competition between what he had without Christ and Christ.
He suffered gladly the loss of all things that he could GAIN Christ.
Paul continues:
" And be found in Him [Christ], not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith,
TO KNOW HIM and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if perhaps I may attain to the out-resurrection from the dead." (vs.9-10)
I don't know why Albert Schweitzer wanted to slanderously lie about the Apostle Paul.
It is probably be cause Albert Schweitzer wanted to establish his OWN righteousness apart from Jesus Christ for the sake of his own boasting.
Paul believed that ANYTHING he could accomplish without the Jesus Christ living in him was dog food, dung, refuse, garbage in comparison to Jesus Christ living out through him.
He forgets everything in his past and keeps stretching forward to gain more and more of Christ living in him.
"Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold, but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,
I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ has called me upward.
" ( Phil. 3:13-14)
Putting it politely, Albert Schweitzer vastly misunderstood and misrepresented Paul.
Putting it bluntly, Albert Schweitzer lied.
Originally posted by sonshipI submit these three quotes are utter nonsense!
ToO supplied three quotations from noted thinkers.
Here are their quotes and my brief reply."In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attentio ...[text shortened]... eat Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.
---- Thomas Jefferson
"In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense
Already we have a problem. This is far from "present tense".
The gospels were written well after the Resurrection and are narrated by four of the Apostles. What is written is by revelation from Christ in their own words.
As for the rest of the quotes, Satan could not have said it better.
Let's remember that the gospels support what is revealed in the epistles and vice versa.
These are the most absurd quotes I have ever heard.
Now I understand why rajk and ToO are so much into the works of the law and so confused, not to mention stubborn.
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Originally posted by checkbaiterYou understanding nothing.
.. Now I understand why rajk and ToO are so much into the works of the law and so confused, not to mention stubborn.
Rajk is not into any 'works of the law'.
Rajk is into the teachings of Christ.
Following the teachings of Christ leads to eternal life.
Rajk did not say that.
Jesus Christ did.
Rajk follows Jesus Christ.
Checkbaiter follows the church
Stubborn is good. A shortage of that leads to being led astray by fools like you.
In the end we will see who is confused.
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Originally posted by sonshipNOW ?? Dont know which stinks more your ego or your false doctrine.
No we see right NOW who is confused. You are.
And I wish you would get out of this thread.
Too bad we cannot restrict participants.
Either one will end you up on the wrong side of Christ.
Yep to bad about that restricting thing. You want unfettered ability to post your garbage unhindered by opposition. You want to come on to a public chess site, post your nonsense without response from anyone ? Who the hell you think you are?
Try a blog., write a book or something.
Yep .. got you before you edited out your boldface statement.
Originally posted by Rajk999Ha ha good catch
NOW ?? Dont know which stinks more your ego or your false doctrine.
Either one will end you up on the wrong side of Christ.
Yep to bad about that restricting thing. You want unfettered ability to post your garbage unhindered by opposition. You want to come on to a public chess site, post your nonsense without response from anyone ? Who the hell you th ...[text shortened]... og., write a book or something.
Yep .. got you before you edited out your boldface statement.
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Originally posted by sonshipAll you've done thus far is demonstrate that you weren't able to comprehend what Kierkegaard and Schweitzer were saying. Just as you have repeatedly demonstrated that you are unable to comprehend what most posters on this forum are saying.
On to some comment on Albert Schweitzer"Paul....did not desire to know Christ....
This is just a slanderous lie.
[quote] [b] " ... I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my lord, on account of whom i have suffered the loss of all things and count t hem as refuse that I may gain ...[text shortened]... zer vastly misunderstood and misrepresented Paul.
Putting it bluntly, Albert Schweitzer lied.
Just as you've also repeatedly demonstrated that you are unable to comprehend what Jesus was saying.
Matthew 13
13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
I knew it was a real longshot.
Originally posted by Rajk999Appears he would try and restrict participants in this thread in much the same way as he would restrict those going to heaven.
NOW ?? Dont know which stinks more your ego or your false doctrine.
Either one will end you up on the wrong side of Christ.
Yep to bad about that restricting thing. You want unfettered ability to post your garbage unhindered by opposition. You want to come on to a public chess site, post your nonsense without response from anyone ? Who the hell you th ...[text shortened]... og., write a book or something.
Yep .. got you before you edited out your boldface statement.
Originally posted by checkbaiterNow I understand why rajk and ToO are so much into the works of the law and so confused, not to mention stubborn.
I submit these three quotes are utter nonsense!
[b] "In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense
Already we have a problem. This is far from "present tense".
The gospels were written well after the Resurrection and are narrated by four of the Apostles. What is written is by revelation from Christ in their own words.
...[text shortened]... why rajk and ToO are so much into the works of the law and so confused, not to mention stubborn.[/b]
When I read this, I was thinking that you didn't seem to understand what rajk has been saying. As evidenced by his response to you, I see I was correct.
Doesn't seem like you understand what I've been saying either.
Clearly if anyone is "confused" and "stubborn", it is you.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneAll three paragraphs are not difficult for me to understand.
All you've done thus far is demonstrate that you weren't able to comprehend what Kierkegaard and Schweitzer were saying. Just as you have repeatedly demonstrated that you are unable to comprehend what most posters on this forum are saying.
Just as you've also repeatedly demonstrated that you are unable to comprehend what Jesus was saying.
Matthew 1 ...[text shortened]... e, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
I knew it was a real longshot.
I think this is your way of sidestepping something.
Is this - " To disagree is to fail to understand " ?
You fancy my failure to understand.
Either that or maybe you're PM-ing somebody who is coaching you.