11 Mar '11 07:00>
In my last discussion with twhitehead he raised the issue of "the strawman". This fallacy of reasoning is common on this forum and it would be good to clarify it in the hope of promoting good reasoning. This is not a "dig" at twhitehead but an attempt to improve all our reasoned arguments. (He was actually right in indicating I had confused the "strawman" term, although still we remain in disagreement on my previous OP)
I would like to look at a couple of examples.
I invite him (or others) to do so with one he claims from my recent posts, while I will seek to raise one from his, if I can find one. Just for enjoyment's and education's sake, rather than whose ego is the biggest and irrespective of the particular argument or its validity or not. The development of objectivity is a good but sometimes difficult thing, particularly in the matters discussed here.
From Wikipeadia:
"The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:
Person A has position X.
Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.
Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy and quote mining).
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated. [My clarifying edit: Person B makes a (poor) assertion in your camp, therefore the position you Person A are presenting is declared wrong.]
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position."
*****
As a further example, say, I posit I am not a creationist for various argued reasons but do not raise the issue of apparent design, (which I actually perceive and acknowledge), having a differing position as to that issue, not a theist-creationist one.
Another responds with an argument placing arguments presenting apparent design to prove the correctness of the creationist position.
Here the arguer has set up a "strawman" if I am not mistaken. The argument has shifted to equate ideas about creationism with ideas about apparent design. This is not an argument that had been presented, but one set up anew to support the creationist position.
In other words you have either intentionally or not, set up a target your opponent is not holding. You have created a "strawman".
There is already a danger of a strawman emerging in this very thread and I wait to see if it emerges. Please remember this is a post about illustrations of a fallacy of reasoned argument, NOT about any particular theory mentioned.
Anyone interested?
I would like to look at a couple of examples.
I invite him (or others) to do so with one he claims from my recent posts, while I will seek to raise one from his, if I can find one. Just for enjoyment's and education's sake, rather than whose ego is the biggest and irrespective of the particular argument or its validity or not. The development of objectivity is a good but sometimes difficult thing, particularly in the matters discussed here.
From Wikipeadia:
"The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:
Person A has position X.
Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.
Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy and quote mining).
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated. [My clarifying edit: Person B makes a (poor) assertion in your camp, therefore the position you Person A are presenting is declared wrong.]
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position."
*****
As a further example, say, I posit I am not a creationist for various argued reasons but do not raise the issue of apparent design, (which I actually perceive and acknowledge), having a differing position as to that issue, not a theist-creationist one.
Another responds with an argument placing arguments presenting apparent design to prove the correctness of the creationist position.
Here the arguer has set up a "strawman" if I am not mistaken. The argument has shifted to equate ideas about creationism with ideas about apparent design. This is not an argument that had been presented, but one set up anew to support the creationist position.
In other words you have either intentionally or not, set up a target your opponent is not holding. You have created a "strawman".
There is already a danger of a strawman emerging in this very thread and I wait to see if it emerges. Please remember this is a post about illustrations of a fallacy of reasoned argument, NOT about any particular theory mentioned.
Anyone interested?