1. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    17 Feb '09 07:08
    It seems to me that pleasure and pain are two sides of
    the same coin.

    Are you conscious in heaven? Do you suffer from boredom?
    If so isn't eternal life a kind of hell.

    If not then how much of you actually goes to heaven?
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    17 Feb '09 07:25
    Heaven, n.: A place where the wicked cease from troubling you with talk of their personal affairs, and the good listen with attention while you expound your own.

    Ambrose Bierce
  3. Standard memberblack beetle
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    17 Feb '09 10:25
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    It seems to me that pleasure and pain are two sides of
    the same coin.

    Are you conscious in heaven? Do you suffer from boredom?
    If so isn't eternal life a kind of hell.

    If not then how much of you actually goes to heaven?
    All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher

    Ambrose Bierce
    😵
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    17 Feb '09 14:47
    Originally posted by black beetle
    All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusions is called a philosopher

    Ambrose Bierce
    😵
    you marry a beautiful women, you are happy! you marry a not so beautiful women and you become a philosopher - Arabic proverb
  5. Standard memberblack beetle
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    17 Feb '09 14:51
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    you marry a beautiful women, you are happy! you marry a not so beautiful women and you become a philosopher - Arabic proverb
    Yikes, either the Arab was high on his holy smoke and said nonsense or I am a bad philosopher, for my beautiful Maria is beautiful and I am happy😵
  6. England
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    17 Feb '09 14:58
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    It seems to me that pleasure and pain are two sides of
    the same coin.

    Are you conscious in heaven? Do you suffer from boredom?
    If so isn't eternal life a kind of hell.

    If not then how much of you actually goes to heaven?
    the pain not in heaven?
    your soul that god created will go your body will not. conscious your soul will be with others in both camps one will be happy and content, the oposite is nashing of teeth and wailing.
  7. Account suspended
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    17 Feb '09 15:20
    Originally posted by black beetle
    Yikes, either the Arab was high on his holy smoke and said nonsense or I am a bad philosopher, for my beautiful Maria is beautiful and I am happy😵
    Lol 😵
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    18 Feb '09 19:161 edit
    Originally posted by stoker
    the pain not in heaven?
    your soul that god created will go your body will not. conscious your soul will be with others in both camps one will be happy and content, the oposite is nashing of teeth and wailing.
    ==========================================
    your soul that god created will go your body will not. conscious your soul will be with others in both camps one will be happy and content, the oposite is nashing of teeth and wailing.
    ========================================


    This is not an adaquate concept of salvation in the Bible.

    If you say that only the soul of man experiences salvation you undermind the truth of resurrection and glorification.

    Have you noticed that to be preserved complete involves not just the spirit or the soul but also the body: For example:

    "And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thee. 5:23)

    Did you notice that the complete sanctification so that it is "you wholly" involves - "your spirit and soul and BODY" (my emphasis).

    So you should not give the asker the impression that God does not care about man's body but only wants his soul to be in some happy place. Let me reemphasize this with Paul's words about our whole mortal being (including the body) being swallowed up by the divine and eternal life of God:

    "For also, we who are in this tabernacle (meaning physical body] ... , being burdened, in that we do not desire to be unclothed, but clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." (2 Cor. 5:4)

    This passage shows:

    1.) To be without a physical body is to be found unclothed (naked) before God. This is not desirable as a permanent state neither by man or by God.

    2.) The full salvtion is not that man would be a soul unclothed with a body, but that soul and body would be "swallowed up by ZOE life". That means within and without man would be satiated and saturated with the eternal Spirit of God - mingling with his personality, saturating his whole being, swallowing him up with the Divine Nature of God Himself.

    3.) The apostles do not desire to be unclothed (just an immaterial soul) but clothed upon. That is receiving also a glorified and resurrected body.

    This has to do with man's total being - the spirit, the soul, and the body. But also the environment of man, his world, is also a recipient of God's full salvation.

    "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea is no more." (Rev. 21:1)

    You see here John's revelation of the future eternity did not mention only heaven. He saw a new heaven and a new earth. Any concept of the save having a permanent home in heaven is actually a kind of defeat to man and to God. The battle is not only over heaven. The battle against God's enemy is over the EARTH. You should therefore think of full salvation as including the planet at least.

    "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit THE EARTH" (Matt. 5:5 my emphasis).

    "But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells" (2 Peter 3:13)

    Peter the Apostle is not expecting just heaven. He is expecting new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness reigns. Therefore any stay in heaven cannot be permanent. The war is over the earth. Satan is defeated when God's kingdom encompasses the whole earth as well as heaven - His will is to be "done on earth as it is in heaven."

    I have tried to show you in this post that God's full salvation is exceedingly practical. It invloves:

    1. the spirit of man (regeneration)
    2. the soul of man (transformation)
    3. the body of man (transfiguration)
    4. the environment of man (new heavens and new earth of righteousness)

    But there is something else. Instead of thinking in terms of God TAKING the saved SOMEWHERE as in a HAPPY PLACE, rather you should think of salvation as God's life growing in man to saturate man to make man united and mingled with God. That is from the inside out.

    When a child is born its normal destiny is to develop and grow into adulthood. It is not adaquate the a car come along and simply TAKE the baby to a happy place. It is vital that the human life in the child GROW, develop, mature, conforming the person to adulthood.

    In the same way the believer is BORN of God that he or she may GROW with this divine life within. That full salvation is not represented so much as the person being physically transported to a happy place. But rather salvation is the maturing and growth of this joyful life of God which has been planted in the believer.

    I this sense what goes to heaven is what has come out of heaven. The natural humanity is impregnated with the life of Christ. He grows, He saturates, He sanctifies, He builds one up with others in love. And this process of growth causes the believers to BECOME the destination - New Jerusalem.

    If you can grasp it, it is more of one spiritually growing INTO heaven than one being transported to heaven. The transporting is secondary to growing. And the transporting is not permanent. But to inherit the new earth and the new heavens in which righteousness dwells is permanent unto eternity.
  9. weedhopper
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    18 Feb '09 20:37
    I see heaven as that place where we all have the peace that passes all understanding, which makes it a place to look forward to after our earthly lives are over.
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    18 Feb '09 23:191 edit
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    I see heaven as that place where we all have the peace that passes all understanding, which makes it a place to look forward to after our earthly lives are over.
    If the Apostle Peter said that the believers are expecting new heavens and new earth, wouldn't that mean that in the eternal age an earthly life continues?

    When we turn to our regenerated spirit, in a very real sense we enter into that age to come. Part of our being is already in heaven if we are born again.

    I said that if we are born again, we should definitely count that a part of our being is already in heaven. We have to enjoy that realm. We have to learn to experience that peace which passes all understanding.

    As a matter of fact that phrase "peace which passes all understanding" was used by Paul in relation to this present age.

    Look how Paul uses that phrase in relation to the troubles of this present life:

    "In nothing be anxious, but in everything, by prayer and petition with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God.

    And the peace of God, which surpasses every [man's] understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus." (Phil. 4:5,6)


    This peace which surpasses every man's understanding should not be postponed until eternity. This peace is to be experience now that the Christian may reign over anxiety of may legitimate and pressing concerns.

    THis peace is based upon the believer's realization that "the Lord is near". That is that Christ is not only coming, but much more through His Spirit indwelling the Christian, He is near, very near.

    Now look at the passage with this thought included in the beginning:

    "Let your forebearance be known to all men. The Lord is near. In nothing be anxious, but in everything, by prayer and petition with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God which surpasses every [man's] understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus."

    This is a chapter on the believer reigning over anxiety though abiding in the peace that is deeper than any man's understanding and the nearness, the closeness of Jesus Christ through His indwelling.

    Now concerning the actual place heaven - before we go we have to have this peace within. If we neglect to cultivate this living peace within it will hinder the Christians ability to be raptured to heaven.

    So the Christian needs to practice the inward heavenly peace in order to qualify to enjoy the rapturee and temporary stay in heaven at the end of this church age.
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    18 Feb '09 23:45
    Originally posted by jaywill
    If the Apostle Peter said that the believers are expecting new heavens and new earth, wouldn't that mean that in the eternal age an earthly life continues?

    When we turn to our regenerated spirit, in a very real sense we enter into that age to come. Part of our being is already in heaven if we are born again.

    I said that if we are born again, we shou ...[text shortened]... to enjoy the rapturee and temporary stay in heaven at the end of this church age.
    If the Apostle Peter said that the believers are expecting new heavens and new earth, wouldn't that mean that in the eternal age an earthly life continues?

    context shows that it cannot refer to the literal heavens nor the literal earth.
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    19 Feb '09 00:002 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    If the Apostle Peter said that the believers are expecting new heavens and new earth, wouldn't that mean that in the eternal age an earthly life continues?

    context shows that it cannot refer to the literal heavens nor the literal earth.
    =================================
    context shows that it cannot refer to the literal heavens nor the literal earth.
    ==================================


    I don't think you can make that case. And here is why:

    The evidence suggests strongly that Peter talks about the literal burning up of the physical environment. It is evident that the fire is real, and the things burnt up are physical.

    "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the ELEMENTS, burning with intense heat, will be DISSOLVED, and the EARTH and the works in it will be BURNED UP" (2 Peter 3:10)

    This is obviously not a metaphysical earth and heaven but the physical one. The same thought of the destruction of the physical environment is repeated in verse 12:

    "Expecting and hastening the coming day of God, on account of which the heavens, BEING ON FIRE, will be DISSOLVED, and the ELEMENTS, BURNING with intense heat, are to be melted away." (v.12 my emphasis)

    Now what is to replace the burnt up old heavens and old earth? New heavens and new earth. Where is the hint that the new heavens and new earth are not physical entities?

    "But according to His promise we are expecting NEW HEAVENS and A NEW EARTH, in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you expect these things, be deligent to be found by Him in peace without spot and without blemish ..." (v.13,14)

    The "spot" and "blemish" in this context certainly are moral/spiritual. That is allegorical language for sure. But the old burning heavens and earth replaced with the new heavens and earth are not allegorical.

    As a matter of fact the previous sentences from 3:3 through to 3:7 form the backround. And they are about the final judgment of the environment being compared to the flood in Noah's time. As the former is not allegorical neither is the latter.
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    19 Feb '09 01:27
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]=================================
    context shows that it cannot refer to the literal heavens nor the literal earth.
    ==================================


    I don't think you can make that case. And here is why:

    The evidence suggests strongly that Peter talks about the literal burning up of the physical environment. It is evident that t ...[text shortened]... to the flood in Noah's time. As the former is not allegorical neither is the latter.[/b]
    Please look at the scripture in its immediate context for Peter states earlier in the passage 'just as in the Days of Noah...', and secondly look at the scripture within the entire context of the Biblical cannon, for it is stated that the earth will last to time indefinite! i would look up the references Jaywill but its 1:30am and my mind is exhausted regards Robbie.
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    19 Feb '09 04:054 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Please look at the scripture in its immediate context for Peter states earlier in the passage 'just as in the Days of Noah...', and secondly look at the scripture within the entire context of the Biblical cannon, for it is stated that the earth will last to time indefinite! i would look up the references Jaywill but its 1:30am and my mind is exhausted regards Robbie.
    ==========================================
    Please look at the scripture in its immediate context for Peter states earlier in the passage 'just as in the Days of Noah...',
    ============================================


    I am not sure we are communicating. I already pointed out the context of Peter's discussion about the days of Noah. So why are you telling me to examine what I have already examined?

    The old earth was flooded and Noah stepped out onto a post flood world. In the same way at the end of the millennium sometime the old earth and heavens are burnt up and John saw a new heaven and new earth.

    I am saying that the creation there is physical. If I understand you you are trying to say that context renders new heaven and new earth there as something not physical.

    But Romans 8 also talks about salvation encompassing the envirnment of the physical creation:

    "For the anxious watching of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.

    For the creation was made subject to vanity, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it,

    In hope that the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.

    And not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves, eagerly awaiting the sonship, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:19-23)


    I like this passage because it shows God's salvation encompassing the creation, ie. the universe. It also speaks not only of the Spirit of God which is with the spirit of the regenerated Christian, but it speaks of the redemption of his body. That is not the doing away of her body but the redemption of her body.

    This establishes my point of the practicality of God's full salvation - spirit and soul and body and creation including heavens and the earth.

    I don't know where you will make a case for something other. It is true that "flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God". But this cannot mean that the saved are naked and unclothed spiritual immaterial beings, ie. only a soul and spirit. It cannot mean that because we Christians await "the redemption of our BODY" as a componant of the full SONSHIP. See also Philippians 3:17-21.

    The physical body of the saved is redemped, resurrected, glorified and swallowed up in life. And the enviroment is released from the decay of vanity to be delivered to the freedom of the glory of the sons of God.

    =================================
    and secondly look at the scripture within the entire context of the Biblical cannon, for it is stated that the earth will last to time indefinite! i would look up the references Jaywill but its 1:30am and my mind is exhausted regards Robbie.
    ======================================


    The more we examine the context of the entire revelation of the Bible the more it becomes apparant that the environment too has a place in God's salvation.

    Now you seem to contradict yourself, unless I do not understand you. You speak of the permenancy of the earth. And that is pretty much the point I am making. Havng the works of the earth burnt up may not mean the dissolving of the planet into nothing at all.

    So I guess we need to figure out if we are agreeing or disagreeing on this point.
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    19 Feb '09 08:332 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]==========================================
    Please look at the scripture in its immediate context for Peter states earlier in the passage 'just as in the Days of Noah...',
    ============================================


    I am not sure we are communicating. I already pointed out the context of Peter's discussion about the days of Noah. So wh
    So I guess we need to figure out if we are agreeing or disagreeing on this point.[/b]
    Yes i am sorry, it was late, i was rather vague, so i shall try to be clear and concise this morning although i did not sleep very well, anyhow, the passage.

    scriptures indicate that the physical earth will remain forever.

    A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite. - Ecclesiastes 1:4

    To time indefinite they will certainly be guarded;
    But as for the offspring of the wicked ones, they will indeed be cut off.
    The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
    And they will reside forever upon it. - Psalm 37:29

    etc etc

    the reference to Noah and the immediate context of 2 Peter

    Beloved ones, this is now the second letter I am writing you, in which, as in my first one, I am arousing your clear thinking faculties by way of a reminder, that youshould remember the sayings previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles. For you know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creations beginning.”

    For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; and by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.

    thus Peter makes the analogy with the heavens and earth of old, which were destroyed (not the literal heaven nor the literal earth, but the world filled with violence, the violent individuals) and makes a correlation with the heavens and earth today (also referring to individuals, not the literal heavens and earth, for he qualifies this when he makes the statement, ungodly men), so we can therefore conclude that the heavens and earth are symbolic of the political system which governs i.e. 'the heavens', and the violent world which is governed i.e., 'the earth'. is it not so?
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