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22 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipI am not interested nor have the time right now for another long discussion.This is where we part views. You are convinced the logos was a person.
When John says concerning the Logos - [b]"He was in the beginning with God" (John 1:2) that is not a Person ?
"He was in the beginning with God." (v.2)
Who is the He?
[quote] "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was ...[text shortened]...
God did not create Wisdom. Wisdom is of His own life - an eternal Someone with eternal Wisdom.
If you want to browse a commentary that aligns with my thinking pertaining to your questions, here it is.
If not, that is fine as well, but I have to go for now....
http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/John/chapter1/1
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23 Jul 16
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterJesus Christ -
I am not interested nor have the time right now for another long discussion.
If you want to browse a commentary that aligns with my thinking pertaining to your questions, here it is.
If not, that is fine as well, but I have to go for now....
http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/John/chapter1/1
My Lord and my God.
“Take hold of Jesus as a man, and you will discover that He is God.”
- Brother Martin Luther
23 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipHi sonship. Checkbaiter answered without hesitation. What about you? Do you believe that subscribing to the Trinity dogma or not subscribing to the Trinity dogma makes any difference to a believer's "salvation"?
Well, Divegeester,
Which one is not God - Father? Son? Holy Spirit ?
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23 Jul 16
1 edit
On the Son given being the Eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6.
From Contending For the Faith (my bolding) website -
http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/Christ-and-the-Father.html
Clement of Alexandria:
Who, then, is this infant child? He according to whose image we are made little children. By the same prophet is declared His greatness: “Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace; that He might fulfil His discipline: and of His peace there shall be no end.” O the great God! O the perfect child! The Son in the Father, and the Father in the Son.5
Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown:
The everlasting Father. This marks Him as “Wonderful,” that He is “a child,” yet the “everlasting Father” (John x. 30; xiv. 9).6
B. B. Warfield:
Here [in John’s writings] He not only with great directness declares that He and the Father are one (x. 30; cf. xvii. 11, 21, 22, 25) with a unity of interpenetration (“The Father is in me, and I in the Father,” x. 38; cf. xvi. 10, 11), so that to have seen Him was to have seen the Father (xiv. 9; cf. xv. 21); but He removes all doubt as to the essential nature of His oneness with the Father by explicitly asserting His eternity (“Before Abraham was born, I am,” Jn. Viii. 58), His co-eternity with God (“had with thee before the world was,” xvii. 5; cf. xvii. 18; vi. 62), His eternal participation in the Divine glory itself (“the glory which I had with thee,” in fellowship, community with Thee “before the world was,” xvii.5).7
23 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipThey are not equal. They are three separate and distinct entities, with one purpose, hence the oneness, God is above all. Jesus is the Son, The Holy Spirit is the power of God manifested whenever it suits Gods purpose. All are have divine attributes.
Well, Divegeester,
Which one is not God - Father? Son? Holy Spirit ?
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23 Jul 16
4 edits
Originally posted by FMF
Hi sonship. Checkbaiter answered without hesitation. What about you? Do you believe that subscribing to the Trinity dogma or not subscribing to the Trinity dogma makes any difference to a believer's "salvation"?
I did not hesitate. I just didn't answer.
The question is loaded first of all. As you word it, contains a trick. To address it admits that there is a "Trinity dogma" that I am concerned with. I am not concerned chiefly with a "dogma" right or wrong. I am speaking about the living God and attempting to remove obstacles to the enjoyment of this living God for some readers.
This loaded question of yours is like John ending his gospel with this kind of modification -
" Moreover indeed many other signs also Jesus did before his disciples, which are not written in this book.
But these are written that you may believe [the Trinity dogma] ..., and believing you may have [the Trinity dogma] .."
So I do not like the inherent little trap hidden in the wording of your question.
But I'll humor you a bit. I don't think a person has to be conversant on the issues that have occupied many on the Trinity to be saved.
I think their growth will be effected and hindered if they do not eventually realize that the Jesus Christ they have let into their hearts is indeed God.
The receiving of initial salvation may not be effected. The progress and maturity, i am pretty sure, will be hampered by clinging to some error like not understanding that to touch Jesus is to touch God.
And we should want to grow in this salvation. For it is not God's only goal that sinners simply be forgiven.
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23 Jul 16
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
They are not equal.
This depends upon what you mean by equal.
For Jesus to say "The Father is greater than I" is something of Him and the Father being not equal.
But for Jesus to say he who has seen Him has seen the Father makes He and the Father equal in that regard.
And for the word of God to say the sin given shall be called "Eternal Father" is something equal.
For the Son to be "given" by the Father may not be equal. But for the Son to be called Eternal Father makes them equal.
For Jesus to petition the Father with sweat as drops of blood that this cup pass from Him shows something of Him and the Father unequal. One is an emblem of authority and the other is an emblem of submission.
For Jehovah God to say He is the First and the Last AND for the resurrected Jesus to say He is the First and the Last is something equal.
For the Holy Spirit not to speak His own words by remind the disciples of what Jesus spoke shows something not equal between the Son and the Spirit.
But for the Bible to say "the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) is something of the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit that is equal.
And for the Bible to say [b]"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" ( 1 cor. 15:45) is to make the Lord and the life giving Holy Spirit.
They are three separate and distinct entities, with one purpose, hence the oneness, God is above all. Jesus is the Son, The Holy Spirit is the power of God manifested whenever it suits Gods purpose. All are have divine attributes.
Since there is one God, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are distinct. But they are not separate. Each lives in the other - coinhere. is a useful word to speak of this unusual relationship
23 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipDo you believe that a believer who thinks that the Trinity theology is ideologically wrong headed, and therefore rejects it and does not subscribe to it, can still be "saved"?
I did not hesitate. I just didn't answer. The question is loaded first of all. As you word it, contains a trick. To address it admits that there is a "Trinity dogma" that I am concerned with. I am not concerned chiefly with a "dogma" right or wrong. I am speaking about the living God and attempting to remove obstacles to the enjoyment of this living God for some readers.
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23 Jul 16
Originally posted by FMFTo receive the Lord Jesus as salvation is not that hard. You may know next to nothing and be able to debate or explain next to nothing EXCEPT this: You know that you need God. And you cry out or call out or do something to ask for Jesus Christ to essentially take up His position as Lord of your heart.
I am talking about someone who understands it [or is conversant, even] and rejects it.
As to "What if they reject it?"
I do not claim to know that in the depths of a person's heart I can tell whether they have rejected Christ as God. I can only look at their talk and discuss their talking.
God knows those who are His.
" ... Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him." (Rom. 8:9a)
23 Jul 16
Originally posted by sonshipBased on what you glean when you "look at their talk and discuss their talking", assuming that it reflects accurately the depths of their hearts, do you imagine Checkbaiter, Rajk999, robbie carrobie and divegeester - for example - non-Trinitarians one and all, and "conversant" in the issues too, to be "saved"?
I do not claim to know that in the depths of a person's heart I can tell whether they have rejected Christ as God. I can only look at their talk and discuss their talking.