What!? Not Talk About the Trinity ?

Originally posted by sonship
Would I like to spend a half hour prayreading with you. Any passage you like. We'd get built up together.

Amen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcq3lIjWXUI

I've watched the video, and see it as something that could help. I'm more into praying
what is on my heart and as I study the scripture if God gives me something to also pray
about that. Which for me right now is being ready for what God is about to do.

Matthew 9:17
Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

Originally posted by sonship
Checkbaiter, in this chapter is Jesus before Abraham or not ?

If the chapter only means Jesus is preeminent to Abraham why does the argument develop over the [b] age of Jesus as compared to Abraham?

"The Jews then said to him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" (v.57)

The essence of the debat ...[text shortened]... under fifty year old man Jesus, before them, is the ever existing and self existing eternal God.[/b]

This is not about Jesus being God. Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see his day. Abraham had great faith and believed on the Messiah to come.
Furthermore Jesus did not say he saw Abraham.
They picked up stones to throw at him because he said he was the Messiah.

Trinitarians claim that the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus because he was claiming to be God , but that is an assumption. There is a different explanation that is supported by better evidence: the Jews picked up stones to kill Jesus because they understood he was claiming to be the Messiah. At Jesus’ trial, the High Priest asked, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God” (Matt. 26:63). First of all, we should notice that no one at the trial asked Jesus if he were God. However, if they thought he had been claiming to be God, that would have certainly been a question they would have asked. The High Priest asked Jesus in very clear terms if he was the Christ because that is what the Jews knew Jesus was claiming to be. Second, when the Jews heard Jesus’ clear answer “Yes, it is as you say”, they accused him of blasphemy and said, “He is worthy of death” (Matt. 26:66). They felt he was worthy of death in the record in John 8, but in that record they picked up stones to kill him, while after hearing his “blasphemy” at the trial, they took him to Pilate and got the Romans to execute Jesus.

Again, I am tired of this. Nothing I point out will ever convince you. That is why this is fruitless, I'm done....

Biblical scholars have spent 100's of years trying to prove that Jesus was the Messiah through painstaking study of the Old Testament prophecies. Jesus wasn't just given the benefit of doubt.....His entire being seems to align with OT prophecy and writings......as the Messiah.....not God.
Where in the OT are there prophecies about the Messiah being God himself? Where did the notion that Savior equals God come from? Because Jesus never said it.
I think the Trinity idea being right or wrong matters very much.....and knowing the true identity of Jesus depends on how one views the Trinity.
I am personally not convinced that Jesus is God. Savior yes....but not enough solid evidence to make the leap to God.
Not to mention the countless times Jesus refers to God as Father, meaning a different entity.

Originally posted by chaney3
Biblical scholars have spent 100's of years trying to prove that Jesus was the Messiah through painstaking study of the Old Testament prophecies. Jesus wasn't just given the benefit of doubt.....His entire being seems to align with OT prophecy and writings......as the Messiah.....not God.
Where in the OT are there prophecies about the Messiah being God hims ...[text shortened]...
Not to mention the countless times Jesus refers to God as Father, meaning a different entity.

Then receive him as your Savior. That is what is essential. Have you done that?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Then receive him as your Savior. That is what is essential. Have you done that?

When a person receives Jesus as their Savior, you don't think it's necessary to know whether you are dealing with Jesus, son of God......or Jesus as God? I think it matters.

To me, the entire 'religion' or spirituality seems much watered down if the reply is "hey..just believe in some sort of Jesus".

I want to know the truth.

Nobody seems to care about the 1st Commandment by the way.

Originally posted by chaney3
When a person receives Jesus as their Savior, you don't think it's necessary to know whether you are dealing with Jesus, son of God......or Jesus as God? I think it matters.

To me, the entire 'religion' or spirituality seems much watered down if the reply is "hey..just believe in some sort of Jesus".

I want to know the truth.

Nobody seems to care about the 1st Commandment by the way.

God has given Jesus the authority...
Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
NKJV

Nothing here about a trinity, just receive Jesus as Lord of your life...

Rom 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Then proceed to learn everything about him. Pray, cry out to him for answers. He will probably lead you back to his word. Ask him to open up the scriptures to you.
NKJV

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Checkbaiter, On John 8:58 you tell us -

This is not about Jesus being God. Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see his day. Abraham had great faith and believed on the Messiah to come.

I have no problem with this.

Furthermore Jesus did not say he saw Abraham.

So what? Jesus says before Abraham came into being He is.

Concerning the One Who came into the world John writes -

" ... and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one things came into being which has come into being." ( John 1:1b-3)

Since everything came into being through Christ, of course He SAW Abraham.
He is the Creator of Abraham. How could He not see Abraham?

Is the one who was "in the world" the Person speaking in John 8 or is it some other Person ?

" He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, ..." (1:10a)

Is that passage about Jesus Christ or is it about someone else ?

It is about Jesus Who is speaking in John 8:58 saying that He was I am, before Abraham.

" ... yet the world did not know Him"

That is why they were arguing with Him and finally attempted to stone Him.

"He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him." (v.11)

He came to His own, the Israelites, and in chapter 8 they did not receive Him. instead they wanted to stone Him because He said He was before Abraham.

The one "in the world" and not recognized (John 1:10) is the One Who is speaking in John 8:58.

The one who "came to His own" and was not received is the One not received in John 5:59.

Through this One all things came into being. Through Him even Abraham came into being.

They picked up stones to throw at him because he said he was the Messiah.

Why don't we hear it straight from their own mouths why they wanted to stone Him? Let them inform us of why Jesus should be STONED.

" The Jews answered Him, We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you being a man, are making Yourself God." (John 10:33)

Yes, this is another chapter.
Yes, they were mad at Him for saying He was the Christ but did not act as they thought the Messiah should act.

But they also wanted to stone Him because, He, being a man, was making Himself God. And that is what happened in John 8:58.

" Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am.

SO ... they picked up stones to throw at Him ..."

Jesus being a MAN said that before Abraham was He is "I AM".
He is God become a man - God-man.

You heard it from their own mouths. Will you teach those Jews also why they wanted to stone Jesus? They didn't need your limited interpretation. They informed us -

Jesus being a man made Himself God. Thus they deemed that He deserved stoning.

But He is God incarnated. (John 1:1,14)

Originally posted by sonship
First let me get this out of the way. FMF complains I never wrote or write anything of practical spirituality. I started a thread called "Why God Is Not Real To You".

It was very practical. He just didn't want to take any of its advice.

"Your sins have made a separation between you and your God."

I talked about the provision God has made for the ...[text shortened]... f the solutions to deal with the problem of barrier of sins hindering the substantiation of God.

I think you're probably very sincere, sonship. But your personal notion of "practical" is self-serving as it enables you to avoid talking about practicalities. You only told me about stuff you think and imagine, nothing practical about living a moral life among other people in this real world which we share. I just got from you some rarefied ideology and entirely abstract rote regurgitations of doctrine.

Originally posted by sonship
Checkbaiter, On [b]John 8:58 you tell us -

This is not about Jesus being God. Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see his day. Abraham had great faith and believed on the Messiah to come.

I have no problem with this.

Furthermore Jesus did not say he saw Abraham.

So what? Jesus says before Abraham came into ...[text shortened]... pretation. They informed us -

Jesus being a man made Himself God. But He is God incarnated.[/b]

If you say so, but the bible says different.
Goodnight

Originally posted by sonship
First let me get this out of the way. FMF complains I never wrote or write anything of practical spirituality.

I am not "complaining" about this as such, but this the third or fourth time of asking as you have been dodging (unless you can point to something in one of your long texts that I've missed): Do you believe that subscribing to the Trinity dogma or not subscribing to the Trinity dogma makes any difference to a believer's "salvation"? checkbaiter answered it with hesitation.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

If you say so, but the bible says different.
Goodnight

Goodnight. But no the Bible says that this PERSON was in the world and the world came into being through this Person. (John 1:3,10)

And the Bible says that this Person is "I am" before Abraham (who came into being along with the world eventually) ... was. (John 8:58)

Put it together and it is quite logical that Jesus as the Son of God saw Abraham, his faith, what he rejoiced in, etc.

Put it this way:

Was God before Abraham ?
Did all things come into being through God ?

Then in John 1:10 is the one who was "in the world" and not known by the world God ?

" He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him." (1:10)

So when did He who brought the world into being come to be "in the world" ? This happened when "the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us".

" And the Word became flesh and tabenacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality." (v.14)

That's the Triune God.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

Trinitarians claim that the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus because he was claiming to be God ,

The Jews tell Jesus WHY they want to stone Him. I don't think they were "Trinitarians".

" ... for blasphemy, because You, being a man, are making Yourself God." (See John 10:33)

This is not "Trinitarians" explaining why they wanted to stone Jesus.
This is the ones doing the stoning, explaining why.

checkbaiter: "Trinitarians claim that the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus because he was claiming to be God"

Originally posted by sonship
The Jews tell Jesus WHY they want to stone Him. I don't think they were "Trinitarians".

Do you sincerely and honestly believe that checkbaiter meant that he thought "the Jews" he mentioned were "Trinitarians"?

You honestly believe that was what checkbaiter was saying to you?

Originally posted by chaney3

Jesus wasn't just given the benefit of doubt.....His entire being seems to align with OT prophecy and writings......as the Messiah.....not God.

The One on whose shoulders the government rest is the Messianic son of David.
Here is what Isaiah says about this Messiah.

" To the increase of His government and to His peace these is no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To establish it, And to uphold it, In justice and righteousness.
The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will accomplish this." (Isa.9:7)

Now that is verse 7 and it obviously is about the Messiah.
If we back up to the verse before - Isaiah 9:6 we see more about this Messiah.

Let's work our way backwards.

This Messiah will be called "Prince of Peace".
This Messiah will be called "Eternal Father".
This Messiah will be called "Mighty God".

We are stepping backwards through the prophecy.

This Messiah will be called "Wonderful Counselor".
Upon the shoulder will be "the government"

The Messiah will be a " son ... given" and finally the Messiah will be a "child ... born"

This prophecy then says a born human child is called Mighty God.
And this prophecy says then a Son is called Eternal Father.

Now we have to inquire Who is the Mighty God ?
We do not have to go far. In the next chapter, chapter 10 we see that the mighty God is Yahweh. The mighty God is Jehovah the Holy One of Israel.

" ... but they will rely upon Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God." (Isaiah 10:20b,21)

The "child ... born" then is Jehovah the Mighty God - God incarnate as a man.

But Who is the "Eternal Father" ? Here too we do not have to look far and wide. In the very same book of Isaiah we are told that Jehovah the divine Father's name from everlasting (or if you will "of old" ).

"For You are our Father, Since Abraham does not know us, And Israel does not acknowledge us.

You Jehovah are our Father; Our Redeemer from of old is Your name.". (Isaiah 63:16) (RcV)

Other English renderings of Isaiah 63:16 [my bolding]

King James Bible
Doubtless thou art our father, ... O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
You are our Father. ... Your name is our Defender From Everlasting.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Yet You are our Father, ... You, Yahweh, are our Father; from ancient times, Your name is our Redeemer.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Doubtless thou art our father, ... O LORD, art our father; our everlasting Redeemer is thy name.

King James 2000 Bible
Doubtless you are our father, ... O LORD, are our father, our redeemer; your name is from everlasting.

American King James Version
Doubtless you are our father, ... O LORD, are our father, our redeemer; your name is from everlasting.

American Standard Version
For thou art our Father, O Jehovah, art our Father; our Redeemer from everlasting is thy name.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For thou art our father, ... thou, O Lord, art our father, our redeemer, from everlasting is thy name.

Darby Bible Translation
For thou art our Father, ... thou, Jehovah, art our Father; our Redeemer, from everlasting, is thy name.

English Revised Version
For thou art our father, ... thou, O LORD, art our father; our redeemer from everlasting is thy name.

The Son given is the incarnation then of the Eternal Father - the Everlasting Father.
No wonder that this mingling of God and man is called 'Wonderful" for He is indeed full of wonder.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Then receive him as your Savior. That is what is essential. Have you done that?

Then receive him as your Savior. That is what is essential. Have you done that?

This is wonderful. So the sinner received Jesus and he becomes a Christian.

Now, this Jesus in him IS the "Spirit of God."
This Jesus in him is also the "Spirit of Christ."
And this Jesus in him is Himself "Christ".

Proof:

" ... if the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of him. But if Christ is in you ... " (See Romans 8:9,10)

But here is where the Trinity comes in in the Christian's experience. For this indwelling One is not only "the Spirit of God", "the Spirit of Christ", and "Christ". This Wonderful and mysterious One is also "the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead"

" ... But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the [human] spirit is life because of righteousness.

And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you .. " (v.10,11a)

Christ the Spirit indwelling the Christian is the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead. The Son given is the Eternal Father (Isa. 9:6)


Christ is the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

This Trinity is about God dispensing God into man.
This Triune God is not that men may have a perplexing doctrine.
Neither is He so that men may have a difficult dogma.
This three-one Divine indwelling Person is for the dispensing of God as divine life into man to fulfill His eternal purpose.

That purpose is the mingling of God and man. The Trinity of what God IS cannot be separated from what God DOES - that is to go through a process by which God can be dispensed into man to indwell man and to give divine life to man. Yet each, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is said to be eternal.