1. Joined
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    14 Nov '12 14:141 edit
    I don't often start my own threads, but this story has made me seriously angry, and I post it in
    response to all those who ask why it is that I, and others like me, term religion and irrational faith
    based beliefs as immoral and dangerous.

    This is in response to any and all those who ask 'what's the harm' in people believing based on faith.

    This is in response to those who say 'why can't you live and let live?'

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

    two investigations are under way into the death of a woman who was 17 weeks pregnant, at University Hospital Galway last month.

    Savita Halappanavar (31), a dentist, presented with back pain at the hospital on October 21st, was found to be miscarrying, and died of septicaemia a week later.

    Her husband, Praveen Halappanavar (34), an engineer at Boston Scientific in Galway, says she asked several times over a three-day period that the pregnancy be terminated. He says that, having been told she was miscarrying, and after one day in severe pain, Ms Halappanavar asked for a medical termination.

    This was refused, he says, because the foetal heartbeat was still present and they were told, “this is a Catholic country”.

    She spent a further 2½ days “in agony” until the foetal heartbeat stopped.

    Intensive care

    The dead foetus was removed and Savita was taken to the high dependency unit and then the intensive care unit, where she died of septicaemia on the 28th.

    An autopsy carried out by Dr Grace Callagy two days later found she died of septicaemia “documented ante-mortem” and E.coli ESBL.

    .......



    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/11/14/its-time-to-abort-the-catholic-church/
  2. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
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    14 Nov '12 14:48
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    I don't often start my own threads, but this story has made me seriously angry, and I post it in
    response to all those who ask why it is that I, and others like me, term religion and irrational faith
    based beliefs as immoral and dangerous.

    This is in response to any and all those who ask 'what's the harm' in people believing based on faith.

    Thi ...[text shortened]...
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/11/14/its-time-to-abort-the-catholic-church/
    Fundies; they ignore even the core beliefs of their own religion. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, however they killed the puir woman
  3. Account suspended
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    14 Nov '12 15:12
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    I don't often start my own threads, but this story has made me seriously angry, and I post it in
    response to all those who ask why it is that I, and others like me, term religion and irrational faith
    based beliefs as immoral and dangerous.

    This is in response to any and all those who ask 'what's the harm' in people believing based on faith.

    Thi ...[text shortened]...
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/11/14/its-time-to-abort-the-catholic-church/
    What harm has been done to the 115,000 persons who by the end of this day will have
    been denied the right to life, the majority due to social convenience. One adult is sadly
    dead because of the hospitals unwillingness to preserve the right of self determination
    and yet thousands of innocents will be denied the right to life and you will not utter so
    much as an undertone against the practice. Any recourse you have to reason and
    rationality, to moral sensibility and to indignation are hypocritical to my mind. We
    should preserve the right to self determination, not morally tyrannise over those who
    do not share the same beliefs as us, for whatever reasons.
  4. Joined
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    14 Nov '12 15:521 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    What harm has been done to the 115,000 persons who by the end of this day will have
    been denied the right to life, the majority due to social convenience. One adult is sadly
    dead because of the hospitals unwillingness to preserve the right of self determination
    and yet thousands of innocents will be denied the right to life and you will not utt ...[text shortened]... ot morally tyrannise over those who
    do not share the same beliefs as us, for whatever reasons.
    i can take it from this then that although you dont agree with it yourself, you would defend a womans right to have the option of abortion.
  5. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    14 Nov '12 16:301 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    We
    should preserve the right to self determination, not morally tyrannise over those who
    do not share the same beliefs as us, for whatever reasons.
    Robbie, if the story is accurate, then this is not about a mere difference of opinion or beliefs. They let that woman die by not aborting the fetus. Speaking out against this behavior isn't morally 'tyrannizing' anyone; it's opposing moral tyranny.
  6. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
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    14 Nov '12 16:33
    I have never understood fundamentalist nutjobs who won't even allow an abortion if the mother's life in danger. They are so intent on following rules that they forget the reason the rules were made in the first place (to protect life). It's a form of moral blindness.
  7. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    14 Nov '12 16:37
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    What harm has been done to the 115,000 persons who by the end of this day will have
    been denied the right to life, the majority due to social convenience.
    Answer: no harm has been done to the ones who did not even possess rudimentary consciousness and thus were incapable of even being aware that their situation was worsening.
  8. Joined
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    14 Nov '12 16:52
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    What harm has been done to the 115,000 persons who by the end of this day will have
    been denied the right to life, the majority due to social convenience. One adult is sadly
    dead because of the hospitals unwillingness to preserve the right of self determination
    and yet thousands of innocents will be denied the right to life and you will not utt ...[text shortened]... ot morally tyrannise over those who
    do not share the same beliefs as us, for whatever reasons.
    What harm has been done to the 115,000 persons who by the end of this day will have
    been denied the right to life, the majority due to social convenience.


    You don't specify, but this appears to be the approximate number of medical abortions per day.

    In which case...

    No harm has been done to 115,000 Persons because embryos and foetuses are not people.

    They have no minds, no conciousness, no personalities and no memories.

    They are not people.

    Any recourse you have to reason and rationality, to moral sensibility and to indignation
    are hypocritical to my mind.


    That's because you don't understand or comprehend reason and rationality. Let alone morality.

    Terminating a pregnancy is about the balance between the rights of the mother and the 'rights'
    of the unborn.

    So first off it doesn't matter what status the unborn has, the mothers right to bodily autonomy
    trumps all else. If they don't want something, someone, in their body they can have it removed.
    Period.

    If that causes the death of the something/someone being removed then so be it.

    However the unborn does not have the same status as the mother.
    It's not a person, it's a bunch of cells, a sack of meat, an unconscious unthinking thing with no memories
    or personality.

    Claiming anything else is to ignore the facts, to ignore reason, to ignore rationality.

    It's putting the 'rights' of a ball of cells over those of a fully fledged human being.

    It's immoral and stupid.

    And it leads to tragedies like the one in the OP.
  9. Account suspended
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    14 Nov '12 18:29
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    What harm has been done to the 115,000 persons who by the end of this day will have
    been denied the right to life, the majority due to social convenience.


    You don't specify, but this appears to be the approximate number of medical abortions per day.

    In which case...

    No harm has been done to 115,000 [b]Persons
    because embryos ...[text shortened]... g.

    It's immoral and stupid.

    And it leads to tragedies like the one in the OP.[/b]
    No harm has been done to 115,000

    no harm? they were systematically killed you psychopathic donkey?
  10. Account suspended
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    14 Nov '12 18:31
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Answer: no harm has been done to the ones who did not even possess rudimentary consciousness and thus were incapable of even being aware that their situation was worsening.
    They were denied the right to life, a right which begun at their conception.
  11. Account suspended
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    14 Nov '12 18:383 edits
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    I have never understood fundamentalist nutjobs who won't even allow an abortion if the mother's life in danger. They are so intent on following rules that they forget the reason the rules were made in the first place (to protect life). It's a form of moral blindness.
    Had the hospital recognised the women's right to self determination then they should
    have acquiesced to an abortion, although my own opinion is that it goes beyond that,
    for she is deciding not only what is done with her body but making a decision which
    affects the life prospects of another. Its both morally corrupt and offensive to the
    mind to talk of life when its being systematically denied to innocents. Many mothers
    themselves have risked death in the faint hope that their child will see life and its one
    of the most noble and bravest decisions that I can think of.
  12. Account suspended
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    14 Nov '12 18:42
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    i can take it from this then that although you dont agree with it yourself, you would defend a womans right to have the option of abortion.
    I am of the opinion that persons have rights, the right of self determination, in this case
    it appears to me to go beyond that, for it is well understood, that we believe that the
    unborn child has also the right to life. Its a total mess, all of these things should have
    been taken into consideration prior to labour and what forms of treatment were on
    offer and acceptable discussed, months in advance.
  13. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    14 Nov '12 19:011 edit
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    term religion and irrational faith
    based beliefs as immoral and dangerous.

    This is in response to any and all those who ask 'what's the harm' in people believing based on faith.

    While I agree with the sentiment behind your post this case is really
    about poor practice or incompetence. Abortion is clearly allowed in
    the Republic where the life of the mother is at risk.

    edit: How are the British Press viewing this?
  14. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    14 Nov '12 19:174 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I am of the opinion that persons have rights, the right of self determination, in this case
    it appears to me to go beyond that, for it is well understood, that we believe that the
    unborn child has also the right to life. Its a total mess, all of these things should have
    been taken into consideration prior to labour and what forms of treatment were on
    offer and acceptable discussed, months in advance.
    So you agree with the hospital staff that the woman dies because they refuse to abort? You would have followed the same path even though it led to the woman's death? What about HER rights? She is a living thinking being, not a fetus with no mind. I guess that counts for nothing in your world.

    Do you rail at the atrocities committed on living people? How much time do you spend defending THEIR rights as opposed to the rights of the fetus?

    Why aren't you railing at your god for allowing fetuses to die stillborn through no fault of people?

    You do realize the human population of the world is killing the planet, right? What the planet needs right now is about 6 billion less people on it which might happen if we keep reproducing willy nilly like we have been in the last 100 years.
  15. Dublin Ireland
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    14 Nov '12 20:03
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    I don't often start my own threads, but this story has made me seriously angry, and I post it in
    response to all those who ask why it is that I, and others like me, term religion and irrational faith
    based beliefs as immoral and dangerous.

    This is in response to any and all those who ask 'what's the harm' in people believing based on faith.

    Thi ...[text shortened]...
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/11/14/its-time-to-abort-the-catholic-church/
    I am from Dublin Ireland and I too am seriously angry about what has happened. I fully believe that if this woman had been in a hospital in the UK or USA she would have been treated better and would still be alive.

    Right now as I write there are thousands outside the gates of the Irish parliament protesting that the government has not legislated for abortion since the x case 20 years ago. The european court has now passed a judgement that the Irish government must legislate now for this unhappy situation which has existed in Ireland for decades. It will be slow in coming but when it does I seriously hope that it will give women the freedom of choice and not turn out to be a watered down version of proper legislation. As for religion, I'm not strong on any religion. The Catholic church in Ireland is a corrupt and failed institution. They misappropriated money and abused minors for hundreds of years. They should not any longer have a say in our society. Their credibility is damaged beyond repair.

    This very tragic situation which has occurred today could very well be whats needed to wake this government up.
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