Who could enjoy Heaven ?

Originally posted by buckky
Roaming around Heaven all day looking down on those misereable sinners roasting in agony, in Hell might make one ill . Just knowing that the vast majority will end up in the Flames is enough to ruin my mood. Heaven might be tainted with the knowlege that all those filthy heathens are frying like a peice of rotton meat down in the Pit. Heaven might end up not being the fun fest it could be with that knowledge.

Just think of the smell though. It'd be like smelling crispy bacon on a Sunday morning for all eternity. Now that's what I call heaven man. 😛

Originally posted by telerion
You know if there was an omnimax god that demanded justice but was also merciful, it wouldn't send souls to eternal torture. Instead, we all could have heaven even after everything that has happened on earth if this god made everyone perfectly understand two things:

1) the magnitude of suffering that they had caused here

2) the hardships each of t ...[text shortened]... ntient life?) had endured.

Edit: Empathy and Guilt. Sound like heaven to anyone else? 😕

Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen............

It seems to me that you are generally ignoring the basic realistic descriptions (all speculative to be sure) of the heaven/hell dynamic that has been given. Instead, you just poke fun at the heavenly couch idea and the memory wipe fiasco.

As a fundie (we do have all the fun!), I try to address these questions by laying out the one relevant aspect of the 'truth model' (as I see it, based on what the Bible says, and then trying to fill in the blanks with a speculation that can stand the consistency test.) at a time.

Telerion referred back to the other thread, but everyone just joked about the memory wipe and forgot all about LuciferHammer's serious answers. Is this a cop out?

And in this comment Tel, you are ignoring the whole Christian view that has been stated here regarding the idea that God doesn't send people to hell, so much as they simply choose not to go to Him! People like bbar have said plainly that that is what they will do. If I could, I might try to smuggle him into heaven against his will, but since only Jesus can advocate for him, all I can do is try to convince him to change his mind before it is too late; because it is up to him.

You want God to 'make everyone perfecty understand these two things'?

But you know God can't do that! (Please don't propose the rock conundrum as the supposed argument that God certainly can!) By offering Jesus Christ as an atonement for your sins, sending Him to endure death on a cross, and to take on Himself the iniquity of us all, the magnitude of the suffering that sin deserves should, by now, be perfectly understood. But, the chosen river of denial runs too deep in a lot of hearts; so the prospects of hell are all to deliberately unclear to most individuals.

I'm not sure why this hardships of others is important to this question. But the more important matter, methinks, is the fact that God understands. But unlike our human judges whose job it is to listen ever so carefully to every witness, evaluating their veracity etc., God understands, and knows, instantly, all of our hardships (excuses and explanations), our motivations and even our hidden agendas. He says 'Be sure your sin will find you out.' and we are told that 'God looks at the heart.'

All we have to do if we want to walk in the truth, is agree with God on everything He says! If that simple statement makes your blood boil, then that identifies the rebellion inside. Instead, try trusting God!. After all is said and done God is good, and God can be trusted.

Originally posted by chinking58
Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen............

It seems to me that you are generally ignoring the basic realistic descriptions (all speculative to be sure) of the heaven/hell dynamic that has been given. Instead, you just poke fun at the heavenly couch idea and the memory wipe fiasco.

As a fundie (we do have all the fun!), I try to address these quest ...[text shortened]... Instead, try trusting God!. After all is said and done God is good, and God can be trusted.

I found most of what you wrote of topic or senseless (unless we adopt your cult view of the world), so I will only address the direct responses to my post.

First, I didn't ignore anything. I didn't think that we were picking up from the old thread. I gave that for buckky to check out.

Second, I am not ignoring "the whole Christian view." There is no "whole Christian view." Christians range from "Hell is a burning lake of fire" to "Hell is a place of spiritual seperation from God without burning fire" to "Hell doesn't exist."

If people choose "not to go to Him," it is because they plainly do not think that he is real. If Hell is so bad as the Bible says (fire or no), then no one by definition could want it. Please point out where Bennett says that this is what they will do. I didn't realize that he had converted to fundamentalist xtianity. As far as I am aware, he thinks the kind of Hell you describe is hogwash. I suspect that you are misrepresenting his position on something.

You want God to 'make everyone perfecty understand these two things'?

But you know God can't do that!

No, I don't. Why not? For some one who can't keep a straight thought, you seem to know a lot more about God than is in the Bible. If you fail, to respond to anything else in my post, please explain why God cannot make everyone understand the pain that they caused on earth and the hardships other people endured.

Please be thorough. If it is 'logically impossible,' then show why. If it violates free will, then show why it does and argue why we even have free will in heaven.

I've proposed a more moral heaven than any xtian one that I've heard. Leaving out the tangential witnessing, just tell me why it is not more moral.

Originally posted by telerion
I found most of what you wrote of topic or senseless (unless we adopt your cult view of the world), so I will only address the direct responses to my post.

First, I didn't ignore anything. I didn't think that we were picking up from the old thread. I gave that for buckky to check out.

Second, I am not ignoring "the whole Christian view." Ther ...[text shortened]... ve heard. Leaving out the tangential witnessing, just tell me why it is not more moral.

I suppose there is no 'whole Christian view', like there is no whole democratic or republican view, so I can only represent my own understanding of the one true view. I believe that there does exist one set of true things; whether any one of us grasps most or all of it is the question that will only be answered one future day (at least in my theistic view that is true; perhaps in your view the unknown will continue forever).

But weren't you ignoring the distinction that people choose hell rather than repentance, as opposed to God choosing to send them there? I think this is a vital matter; otherwise, God would be that monster god bbar and others are always talking about. Remember that 'God is not willing that any should perish.' A monster wills all to perish!

I'm not going to search for the comment I remember reading about someone choosing hell rather than being by monster god. I'm sure it was said (truuuuuuust me).

If you fail, to respond to anything else in my post, please explain why God cannot make everyone understand the pain that they caused on earth and the hardships other people endured

I think God tries to get us to understand these things, but what does it mean to 'make' someone understand? Brain manipulation? When He says 'do not murder' and then that a murderer should be executed, someone either understands that or not. Certainly he knows inherently that being murdered himself would be a pain; that's why we generally try to avoid it: we understand pain being caused to ourselves so we understand what it means to cause pain to others. This understanding we all have is the premise of the golden rule. Maybe you mean that people should be forced (somehow) to apply that understanding before we act out.

I don't believe that Jodi Messina has it right in her song. Noone's 'givadam' can be busted, but it can be turned off, and if I choose to turn mine off, God will not be disrespectful enough to turn it back on as if I were a robotic machine.

You'll have to lay out your moral heaven picture for me Tel. Somehow I missed that.

Originally posted by chinking58
I suppose there is no 'whole Christian view', like there is no whole democratic or republican view, so I can only represent my own understanding of the one true view. I believe that there does exist one set of true things; whether any ...[text shortened]... spectful enough to turn it back on as if I were a robotic machine.

You'll have to lay out your moral heaven picture for me Tel. Somehow I missed that.

I did. It is the the first post that you responded to. I pointed out a way in which a god could be just but also merciful. It also doesn't have the 'monster god' tendency in a lot of other views.
Everyone would be admitted to heaven. Upon entrance each of us would allowed to really fathom how much hurt we caused other people. we would also really fathom why other people did the things that they did in life (good and bad), then we could achieve heaven. The worst criminals would break under the remorse. The most innocent would look on with pity. In that moment we would all understand one another. We could really forgive and be forgiven. And so heaven would begin.

You have asked if God doing this is brainwashing, but I do not think so. First, there are no brains to wash. Everyone would be dead so every body would have been consumed. This would have to be a spiritual understanding. Second, he wouldn't be really manipulating you. Rather he would be exposing everyone to a higher truth, an understanding that we do not and cannot get here on earth. He knows what it will take to make everyone understand. He possessed this knowledge even when man did not yet exist. Finally, if you insist that is still technically brainwashing, I must point out that this is hardly beyond the pale for God. He heartened the heart of Pharoah in Exodus so that Pharoah could not release the Israelites before God fulfilled his final curse, (the death of every Egyptian firstborn baby). Paul writes that God has "darkened the eyes of the Jews" so that the Gentiles might come to salvation (Romans 11:7-11). From the passage it does not appear that all Jews are to remain blinded, but at least God temporarily blinded them. And who can forget these wonderful verses from 2 Thess. 2:11-12?

"For this reason God sends [unbelievers] a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

I'm saying a just, but loving, god would send people us all a strong revelation after we have died. It would know that it would make everyone happy by showing everyone this thing. It would fulfill it's will that all should come into fellowship. Instead of "hardening hearts," it would open them. Instead of blinding people, it would enlighten people for the enrichment of all. If a mere human like myself can figure this out, why cannot your omniscient god?

Originally posted by buckky
Roaming around Heaven all day looking down on those misereable sinners roasting in agony, in Hell might make one ill . Just knowing that the vast majority will end up in the Flames is enough to ruin my mood. Heaven might be tainted with the knowlege that all those filthy heathens are frying like a peice of rotton meat down in the Pit. Heaven might end up not being the fun fest it could be with that knowledge.

I suggest you read "Visions of Heaven and Hell" written by John Bunyan. You should then get a picture of what the places are really like.

Originally posted by dj2becker
I suggest you read "Visions of Heaven and Hell" written by John Bunyan. You should then get a picture of what the places are really like.

Because John Bunyan been to both and back. 😕

Originally posted by jimslyp69
Just think of the smell though. It'd be like smelling crispy bacon on a Sunday morning for all eternity. Now that's what I call heaven man. 😛

burnt Goat?

Originally posted by buckky
Roaming around Heaven all day looking down on those misereable sinners roasting in agony, in Hell ...

How do you know that this is what people in Heaven do?

Originally posted by TheBloop
How do you know that this is what people in Heaven do?

I read about it in People Magazine.

Originally posted by buckky
I read about it in People Magazine.

I once read that some woman in Nebraska had given birth to a two-headed goat, doesn't mean it was true.

Originally posted by orfeo
I once read that some woman in Nebraska had given birth to a two-headed goat, doesn't mean it was true.

wanna bet it grew up to be a creation scientist?

Originally posted by orfeo
Ah, now I see where the 'memory wipe' theory comes from.

I'm far from convinced that heaven would involve forgetting everything that had gone before. Just because there will be no more death doesn't mean we would forget what death actually is.

yes it does, the wipe memory is because if we think of something in gods presence we must be clean, given most of life is painful, you may meet someone from your past who hurt you then a thought of that pain will emerge and even tho both have been forgiven there sins the sinfull thought would enter gods presence so heaven would be given over to sin and this will not be . thus everyone will be your brother/sister

Originally posted by telerion
Because John Bunyan been to both and back. 😕

Ever heard of a vision?