6 edits
Exactly. There is not one word in God's Holy Word about a trinity. There are dozens of scriptures that speak of God's oneness.
Yes, I agree that there are many verses that speak of God's oneness.
But we have to be honest that some verses speak of God as "We" and "Us".
Is "We" here God or not?
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
Isn't "We" there, referring to the Father and the Son = God ?
If not then tell me which one of the "We" there is NOT God ?
Some of you guys are too hard on the wise ancient brothers who came up with the words triune or trinity. I am not saying they were perfect Christians. But I think you under appreciate how they were FORCED to say something about this great mystery.
Now, your next post to me I hope will say that "We" there is God or will identify which One of the divine "We" there was not God.
1 edit
Me.
Thankyou moonbus.
Are you a saved person ?
I am a saved man. Thank God !!
So you are saying that you are saved person and definitely do not believe in what I would call "the unique Triune God ?"
You don't believe, for example, that the "We" of the Father and the Son in John 14:23 refers to God ??
Ie. the Two are "Une" are mysteriously one there.
Some of you are too hard on the older time Christians who were forced to speak of the "trinity" or a "triune God".
If you want to say debates caused a lot of troubles, I will not disagree with that. But there is an under appreciating for the delimma that these Christians had to endure to be forced to utter the mystery of the three-oneness of God.
The attacks against the Person of Christ they did not wither under. They were forced to utter SOMETHING as to not remain silent in the face of such attacks from every side.
Who can detect any difference in them between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit ? Experiencially, we Christians can detect no separation.
But we see Three ________ in the Scriptures. I leave it blank because human language fails us. Perhaps, briefly we could borrow the word "Persons". But even "persons" we shouldn't press too far for there is only one God.
Exactly. There is not one word in God's Holy Word about a trinity. There are dozens of scriptures that speak of God's oneness. The trinity theory did not come about until a couple hundred years after Christ's death and resurrection. Period.
Does, this matter for salvation? I hardly think so. Either belief brings salvation. God says so in John 3:16.
John 3:16 -
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish but have eternal life.
Are you saying that one of the two - God and the only begotten Son, was not God ?
John the apostle writing and recording this Gospel, would not agree with you if you say this.
For John said the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And Jesus, the center of the Gospel of John, would say to us that before Abraham came into being He, Jesus, was the "I Am" = the God of Exodus 3:14
"Then Moses said to God, If I come to the children of Israel and say to them, The God of your fathers has sent me to you, and they say to me, What is His name? what shall I say to them?
And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. And He said, This you shall say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you." (Exd. 3:13,14)
The is what the Jews understood Jesus to be saying when they picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy in John 8 when He said He is "I Am".
"The Jews then said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am.
So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple." (John 8:57-59)
So in John 3:16 which is not God - God or the only begotten Son?
3 edits
@sonship saidVery good. I am not here to change anyone's beliefs. I currently go to trinitarian churches; and, recently graduated from a trinitarian university with a bachelors degree in theology. Biblical Studies was my major. I totally understand the trinity theory; and, I know that salvation does not rely on ones belief in the trinity, or the oneness of God. I've gone to churches with both beliefs; and, they both claim that those who believe different than them are not saved and going to hell. Hog-wash I say; and not only I but God in His Holy Word. Both beliefs believe and know, that Jesus was the Son of God while He was on this earth in the flesh; and, they both believe and know that Jesus is God and was God while in the flesh on this earth. They both worship and have close personal relationships with Jesus. Period. That's all that matters. God loves us ALL. We will all find out in our ends on this earth; which is not so long away for some of us. Our salvation does not rest on these beliefs; It rests on the Blood of Jesus. I am a oneness believer, you are a trinity believer; nice to meet you brother. 🙂 God Bless, David
Some of you are too hard on the older time Christians who were forced to speak of the "trinity" or a "triune God".
If you want to say debates caused a lot of troubles, I will not disagree with that. But there is an under appreciating for the delimma that these Christians had to endure to be forced to utter the mystery of the three-oneness of God.
The attacks against ...[text shortened]... borrow the word "Persons". But even "persons" we shouldn't press too far for there is only one God.
@sonship saidNo I don't believe that .
This question is opened to anyone who comes to this Forum - old timer, visitor, new comer, even trolls who can manage a moment for a serious answer. Just give me a simple clear answer:... that there is a unique Triune God, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit; that Jesus Christ is the Son of God incarnated to be a man;
Who definitely does not believe this sentence ?
10 edits
. I am a oneness believer, you are a trinity believer; nice to meet you brother.
Thank you brother.
Thanks for the reply KingDavid. I hope you'll stay around for some further talking and fellowship.
If you will notice, the statement of faith that Divegeester so objects to never said to be saved one must believe in "the doctrine of the trinity".
It said belief in the unique Triune God.
And by creating a dichotomy Ie. "I'm oneness verses you are trinitarian" puzzles me. It implies that I disbelieve the "une" from Tri-UNE.
Since I believe in the oneness of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit in an mysterious way I am for "oneness".
"You are Jehovah, You alone." (Neh. 9:6)
God is God - "alone".
I think you are making a dichotomy where there is none.
TriUNE God is not "three Gods". Not in my belief it is.
So when you tell me Ie. "I am a ONENESS believer. But you, you are a TRINITARIAN" it comes across to me as -
Ie. "You only believe in TRI and don't believe in the UNE. "
Or ie. " I am a UNEness believer while you are a TRIness believer."
Is it possible that you making a false dichotomy there ?
So an adaquate way to put it, imo, is I believe in "the unique Triune God".
1 edit
@sonship saidSo an adaquate way to put it, imo, is I believe in "the unique Triune God".
@KingDavid403. I am a oneness believer, you are a trinity believer; nice to meet you brother.
Thank you brother.
Thanks for the reply KingDavid. I hope you'll stay around for some further talking and fellowship.
If you will notice, the statement of faith that Divegeester so objects to never said to be saved one must believe in "the doctrine of th ...[text shortened]... my there ?
So an adaquate way to put it, imo, is I believe in "the unique Triune God".
So an adequate way to put it, imo, is I believe in "the unique One, and only God".
@divegeester
I have been honest with you.
A doctrine alone is not life and cannot save.
A doctrine can be believed and the Person of Christ not be received.
So the brothers did not write it that way about the doctrine of the trinity or any OTHER doctrine.
So believing the doctrine one may not receive the living God.
And not being fully conversant in a doctrine, one MAY receive the living Person of God.
God is a living God is He not ?
Do you know the living God?
Or do you just nod to an objective doctrine of one kind of another?
-Removed-I say No, of course not.
I feel you have spent an inordinate amount of time on this over the years, though, because like sonship, you also believe in a "three-in-one" God. You just like to take pains to claim you do not, merely because you call it by another name. That's still the only difference I see between the "Triune" God, and your "three offices" God. You just dislike the name and idea of "Trinity", and so you endlessly claim your God is not that, even though the difference between your "three offices" God and the Triune God seems one of semantics only.
And yes, you may consider this an invitation to further delineate the differences as you see them.