Originally posted by AThousandYoung
What probability do the strong and weak atheists attribute to the possibility of God existing? Strong atheist says 0% I am sure, but what of the other? Could one think the Christian God is 50% likely, or 49% likely, or 1% likely, or 0.0000000000000001% likely to exist and be a weak atheist?

I'm going to bed, but I think this would be a good demonstrator for a technique I was talking about in a thread in late February/early March called 'Evidence, Induction and Drinking Games'. I'll resurrect it tomorrow (or you can find it now) and we can discuss this issue in that context, which should help to answer both of your questions.

Originally posted by royalchicken
I'm not calling anybody a fool; I'm saying that the strong atheist has a position as untenable as that of the theist, because xe has made an unsupported claim, while the weak atheist has merely said "No, I'm not going to believe you until you provide evidence, and, when the issue comes up, I'll not bring god into any of my reasoning and decisions, becau ...[text shortened]... indicate Xe exists." Do you see how this is different from the claim "There is no god"?

Whodey's absolutely right, you are a dolt. We all hope and pray that you burn for all eternity in Hell. Certainly this is no more than what you deserve.

Originally posted by royalchicken
Not really; 'belief' is not a binary thing; a claim can be believed to a (sometimes subjectively) measured extent between 0 and 1 inclusive. This is one of the best ways of interpreting the probability axioms.

I am not familiar with probability axioms. Can you explain? As I see it, you have three reponses to the question, "Do you believe in God." These responses are Yes, No, and I don't know. You can play with numbers all day long to try and explain what percentage of belief and/or doubt makes one respond in a certain way. I don't see an objective way to do this, however.

Originally posted by royalchicken
I'm not calling anybody a fool; I'm saying that the strong atheist has a position as untenable as that of the theist, because xe has made an unsupported claim, while the weak atheist has merely said "No, I'm not going to believe you until you provide evidence, and, when the issue comes up, I'll not bring god into any of my reasoning and decisions, becau ...[text shortened]... indicate Xe exists." Do you see how this is different from the claim "There is no god"?

I don't think we are on the same page. You view the theist position as untenable as the atheist. I would agree in principle because neither the atheist or the theist can "prove" that God exists. I am in no way talking about "proving" the existence of God nor interested in doing so. What I am saying is that the totality of reality, or what I call the possiblity of God, is beyond the reality we are capable of perceiving. I don't see how one can argue this point. Our knowledge and intellectual capacity are finite and skewed compared to the infinite knowledge of the universe. Therefore, once you come to terms with this fact, you must also come to terms that there are only two answers to the question, "Do you believe in God?" You will respond yes or I don't know. If you say, "No, I do not believe in God", you would be saying that you have proven he does not exist. You would be saying that your finite knowledge and wisdom is capable of grasping the infinite or the reality of totality, and subsequent possibility of God. Those that believe in God should have no interest in proving what they know they cannot fully comprehend. It would be like a toddler trying to prove a mathamatical equation in calculus.

Originally posted by whodey
No. I said the fool says in his heart there is no God. I did not say that their concept of God must fit mine. Neither did I say it is the Christian concept of God. I suppose you could even argue that one is not sure if there is a God. The fool is the one that is confident that there is no God.

And likewise confident there IS a god. Same position.

Originally posted by whodey
Those that believe in God should have no interest in proving what they know they cannot fully comprehend. It would be like a toddler trying to prove a mathamatical equation in calculus.

It is often reported that Newton was so mathematically advanced that he took calculus when he was 9 years old, and was the best in his class of students twice his age.

Originally posted by whodey
You will respond yes or I don't know. If you say, "No, I do not believe in God", you would be saying that you have proven he does not exist. You would be saying that your finite knowledge and wisdom is capable of grasping the infinite or the reality of totality, and subsequent possibility of God.

Do you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

If you say no, are you saying that your finite knowledge and wisdom is capable of grasping the infinite or the totality of reality?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Technically, this is true. Belief means "assessed as being of >50% probability". So:

Belief in God = God is >50% likely
Do not believe in God = God is not >50% likely; therefore God is =/< 50% likely.
Believe there is no God = Lack of God is >50% likely, which means that God is =/< 50% likely.

EDIT - No; Believe there is no God = God is < 50% ...[text shortened]... 50% likely, one does not believe there is a God, but cannot believe there is not a God either.

If A is just slightly more likely than B, would you say you believe A? If you have a coin which due to some irregularity lands on one side a bit more often than on the other, would you believe that it will land on that side? If you do, you use the word very differently from me. I certainly wouldn't say I believe in God if I had somehow determined that his existence is 51% likely. I would say it's not unlikely.

Originally posted by whodey
As I see it, you have three reponses to the question, "Do you believe in God." These responses are Yes, No, and I don't know.

The answer "I don't know" would mean that you believe something without knowing that you do. Maybe a very unreflected person could give that answer, but otherwise it doesn't make sense. If I were undecided about the existence of God, I wouldn't believe in God, nor would I believe in his non-existence. So I would answer "no" both to the question "Do you believe in God?" and to the question "Do you believe God does not exist?"

Personally, I would reply "yes" to the question "Do you believe the Christian God does not exist?", but "no" both to the question "Do you believe in any kind of god?" and "Do you believe that there is no god of any kind?"

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
We all hope and pray that you burn for all eternity in Hell.

But will he notice any difference?

Originally posted by whodey
Our knowledge and intellectual capacity are finite and skewed compared to the infinite knowledge of the universe. Therefore, once you come to terms with this fact, you must also come to terms that there are only two answers to the question, "Do you believe in God?" You will respond yes or I don't know. If you say, "No, I do not believe in God", you would ...[text shortened]... omprehend. It would be like a toddler trying to prove a mathamatical equation in calculus.

So you can say "yes, I believe in God" without having any interest in proving it, but if you say "no, I believe God doesn't exist", you need to be able to prove it?

Originally posted by royalchicken
I'm not calling anybody a fool; I'm saying that the strong atheist has a position as untenable as that of the theist, because xe has made an unsupported claim, while the weak atheist has merely said "No, I'm not going to believe you until you provide evidence, and, when the issue comes up, I'll not bring god into any of my reasoning and decisions, becau ...[text shortened]... indicate Xe exists." Do you see how this is different from the claim "There is no god"?

The only problem thoughout is you have not defined that word 'God' or even the word 'god'.
I personally believe that the position that there is no God as defined by the Christian Bible is a tenable position, as long as you go as far as saying that 'I exist' is tenable.

Originally posted by sonhouse
And likewise confident there IS a god. Same position.

No. The one who embraces the totality of reality realizes that the only way to do so is through faith. Your intellect is not capable of doing so without faith. Both the atheist and theist cannot deny that the totality of reality exists in that the universe is infinite and unknowable in its entirety.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Do you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

If you say no, are you saying that your finite knowledge and wisdom is capable of grasping the infinite or the totality of reality?

I am not saying that faith is blind. Indeed, faith has a basis and/or evidence on which it is based. Look at creatiion/evolution or whatever term you care to throw in. It exists and you exist within its constructs, thus, you are part of a greater whole or the totality of reality. Thorugh observation you reach these conclusions and is not based on the absence of reality. For all you know, nothing is real. If you believe so, you could embrace the flying pasta. Neither the position of believing in nonexistence or the flying pasta has any merit or evidence based on our observations of the totality of reality. Faith conceeds that there is an infinite amount of evidence for the totality of reality, but a finite awareness of this evidence. This evidence, however, is just that, it is only evidence. There is no "proving" anything.

Originally posted by Nordlys
The answer "I don't know" would mean that you believe something without knowing that you do. Maybe a very unreflected person could give that answer, but otherwise it doesn't make sense. If I were undecided about the existence of God, I wouldn't believe in God, nor would I believe in his non-existence. So I would answer "no" both to the question "Do you belie ...[text shortened]... in any kind of god?" and "Do you believe that there is no god of any kind?"

You have a point here. I suppose the answer is either yes or no to the question, "Do you believe in God." There is no middle ground unless you have not given it any thought whatsoever.