Why did Jesus have to die

Originally posted by moon1969
Why did Jesus have to die to save us. Why couldn't he stay alive and save us.

It is such an awkward nonsensical premise that is just accepted, that Jesus had to die for our sins. Why couldn't he stay alive and cleanse us of our sins. Why do we need his blood. Why do we have to washed in the blood. After all, seems like a metaphor anyway.

I guess just because it was said so.

Why did Jesus have to die to save us. Why couldn't he stay alive and save us.

Jesus had to die for us for three reasons:

1.) Redemption
2.) Termination
3.) Germination

Originally posted by jaywill

Why did Jesus have to die to save us. Why couldn't he stay alive and save us.

Jesus had to die for us for three reasons:

1.) Redemption
2.) Termination
3.) Germination

did you say before that jesus died to absolve humanities sin, including all the people who have and have not been born yet?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
did you say before that jesus died to absolve humanities sin, including all the people who have and have not been born yet?

`

did you say before that jesus died to absolve humanities sin, including all the people who have and have not been born yet?

Those who lived before Jesus was born, lived, died, and rose again, I definitely believe can benefit from His accomplishment.

I do not claim to know exactly how in all instances. But the book of Romans seems clear that some under the old covenant looked forward through the symbolic sacrifices to Christ's act which took place future to their lifetimes.

My point however, was that I can locate three basic reasons why Jesus had to die for us.

1.) He died to redeem sinners from the curse of the law - Redemptive
2.) He died to terminate the old Satanified damaged humanity - Termination
3.) He died to release the Divine Life that was concealed in the shell of His humanity to produce others very much like Himself - Germination.

I believe that the cross is the center of history. And people on either side, timewise, may partake of its benefits.

I do not know in all cases HOW God will accomplish this. But "No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

"Me" there is a living Person - the Son of God.

Originally posted by jaywill
`

did you say before that jesus died to absolve humanities sin, including all the people who have and have not been born yet?

Those who lived before Jesus was born, lived, died, and rose again, I definitely believe can benefit from His accomplishment.

I do not claim to know exactly how in all instances. But the book of Roman ...[text shortened]... pt through Me." (John 14:6)

"Me" there is a living Person - the Son of God.[/b]

thanks jaywill.

i think (not that i know much about god) it must have been for the people who lived before jesus. if it was for the people after then it would mean future generations could sin all they want because its already been absolved, this would also explain why in some parts of christianity people go to a confession booth to ask for forgiveness for their sins.

point 3 interests me, are their any examples of the people he has germinated to be like him? surly nobody is as sin free as jesus?

with the cross do you mean that literary as the center of history, i guess you think the world is about 4000 yrs old does that mean (i know im wildly speculating on your opinions, sorry) the end of the world will be around 4000 a.d.?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
thanks jaywill.

i think (not that i know much about god) it must have been for the people who lived before jesus. if it was for the people after then it would mean future generations could sin all they want because its already been absolved, this would also explain why in some parts of christianity people go to a confession booth to ask for forgivene ...[text shortened]... ow im wildly speculating on your opinions, sorry) the end of the world will be around 4000 a.d.?

i think (not that i know much about god) it must have been for the people who lived before jesus. if it was for the people after then it would mean future generations could sin all they want because its already been absolved,

No, that is not the new covenant. What some call substitution, ie. Christ taking your place, only occurs to those who believe into Christ.

The effective redemption is applied by faith of the one who is joined to Christ, identifying with Christ.

this would also explain why in some parts of christianity people go to a confession booth to ask for forgiveness for their sins.

Didn't follow this point.

point 3 interests me, are their any examples of the people he has germinated to be like him? surly nobody is as sin free as jesus?

No one now is totally free of sin. But the cooperative believer is being conformed to the image of the Son of God. This is called Transformation.

The idea is this. God says to those who are to spend eternity with Him, ie:

"You and I are incompatible. And by the way, I don't change."

His salvation will present every believer eventually without spot or wrinkle or any such thing before the Father in love. He must change us to be conformed to the image of Christ the Firstborn Son of many brothers, many brothers to express the divine Being.

with the cross do you mean that literary as the center of history, i guess you think the world is about 4000 yrs old does that mean (i know im wildly speculating on your opinions, sorry) the end of the world will be around 4000 a.d.?

No. I don't mean that. I mean central in significance.

Originally posted by jaywill

i think (not that i know much about god) it must have been for the people who lived before jesus. if it was for the people after then it would mean future generations could sin all they want because its already been absolved,

No, that is not the new covenant. What some call [b]substitution, ie. Christ taking your place, only occurs ...[text shortened]... ll be around 4000 a.d.? [/quote]

No. I don't mean that. I mean central in significance.[/b]

so christ died for the sins of future christians, who should because of their beliefs have no sins!

so we are saying that a death row criminal that beliefs in god is okay because jesus has absorbed his sins. where an atheist who lives a good life is fckd. it sounds like you are saying belief is more important than being a good person?

my point regarding confession is that if jesus had died to absolve people of their sins then their would be no need to go to confession as your sins have already been forgiven, this also raises the question if adam has been punished for our sins and noah has been the only sur vior of our sins, why do we still sin,

Originally posted by stellspalfie
so christ died for the sins of future christians, who should because of their beliefs have no sins!

so we are saying that a death row criminal that beliefs in god is okay because jesus has absorbed his sins. where an atheist who lives a good life is fckd. it sounds like you are saying belief is more important than being a good person?

my point re ...[text shortened]... been punished for our sins and noah has been the only sur vior of our sins, why do we still sin,

Actually a couple corrections here.

Jesus died for all humans not just Christians. There are many people on the earth that will never know the Bible or what's in it but that have good hearts. This is what Jesus along with his Father will do when ones are being judged. Also the majority of humans that have died all thrru history have not been Christians but the Bible says: "The wages of sin is death." So once a human has died all sins commited before death are forgiven for all humans.

And all humans still sin. Being a Christian does not make one perfect, we are still imperfect and sin daily and that's why we pray daily not only to thank God for what he gives us but to forgive our daily sins.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
so christ died for the sins of future christians, who should because of their beliefs have no sins!

so we are saying that a death row criminal that beliefs in god is okay because jesus has absorbed his sins. where an atheist who lives a good life is fckd. it sounds like you are saying belief is more important than being a good person?

my point re ...[text shortened]... been punished for our sins and noah has been the only sur vior of our sins, why do we still sin,

so christ died for the sins of future christians, who should because of their beliefs have no sins!

The question makes little sense. And I guess tonight I am not in the mood for "Gotcha!" misunderstandings.

Before you or I were born, God made provision for our salvation. He has made provision in His redemptive act for the sins of the world. I don't know what kind of "Gotcha!" moment you think this furnishes the skeptic.

so we are saying that a death row criminal that beliefs in god is okay because jesus has absorbed his sins. where an atheist who lives a good life ... it sounds like you are saying belief is more important than being a good person?

Before you were born God saw your need for redemption and reconciliation to Himself. You had done nothing either good or bad and Christ made provision for your eternal salvation.

It is the same with every person who has or will live.

If this seems skewed to you it is probably because you don't yet understand that forgiveness is not an end in itself. God has an eternal purpose to conform His people into the image of Christ that He may have sons of God with His life and nature - brothers of Jesus the Firstborn Son of God.

So when people think they have some perculiar fault to charge God with because of forgiveness of all sins, it is usually because they do not realize that forgivness is not the only end in itself.

They are appalled that any and all sins might be forgiven to the sinner. That is true. But a proper understanding of God's full new testament salvation is more like this:

1.) The sinner who believes gets to be forgiven of any and all sins which he may have committed.

2.) There is something that the sinner, however, does NOT get. He does not get to remain the same kind of person forever that he was as when he committed those sins.

The death row murderer who believes into Christ is seen then by God as if he had never sinned at all. God has not overlooked his sins. They have been JUDGED in the person of Jesus on the cross.

Grasp this. When I believe in Christ I accept that Christ was judged in my place. That is tremendous. And that is beyond any man made imagination's invention. Because I have believed into Christ, even on death row, eternal redemption has been given to me because justice against my sins was accomplished at the cross of Jesus on Calvary.

What I do get is to remain the same kind of person. I must be sanctified. I must be transformed. I must be conformed to the image of Christ. I get to be forgiven. I do not get to remain the same.

God is patient and has the time to transform me. And He also has His wise ways to give me the incentive to cooperate with transformation.

I think it is futile for you to waste time trying to locate weaknesses in the Divine plan of salvation.

my point regarding confession is that if jesus had died to absolve people of their sins then their would be no need to go to confession as your sins have already been forgiven, this also raises the question if adam has been punished for our sins and noah has been the only sur vior of our sins, why do we still sin,

When I believed in Christ I received eternal redemption. I will never perish in the damnation of eternal separation from God.

As to my daily fellowship with God I am not even aware of the extent of my problems. As I grow His light shines more and more upon my errors. One by one I agree with Him. I confess and forsake. Confession is agreeing with God.

This confession is for fellowship and not for eternal redemption. This confession is acknowledging more and more in specific ways that Christ needs to move into the various chambers of my personality.

Receiving eternal redemption forever, once and for all does not absolve me from growing in awareness and consciosness of specifics. This confession of specific sins is for the deepening of communion and fellowship with God and for sanctification of transformation.

And though much more could be written, for length's sake I stop here.

Originally posted by jaywill

so christ died for the sins of future christians, who should because of their beliefs have no sins!

The question makes little sense. And I guess tonight I am not in the mood for "Gotcha!" misunderstandings.

Before you or I were born, God made provision for our salvation. He has made provision in His redemptive act for the sins of ...[text shortened]... sounds like you are saying belief is more important than being a good person? [/quote]

thanks, i appreciate you taking time to respond to my barrage of skeptical questions and im sorry if i make you feel like im trying to catch you out. i just think its important for people to ask questions about their beliefs.


i must admit, im getting rather confused about the whole sin forgiveness, afterlife, judgement thing. ive been given several different views from christians about who will be forgiven and who wont, the kind peaceful god (who seems to be the most contradictory) and the blood and thunder god who is going to smite me for being a heathen. how is an atheist supposed to know what its all about if you lot cant agree between yourselves.

Originally posted by galveston75
Actually a couple corrections here.

Jesus died for all humans not just Christians. There are many people on the earth that will never know the Bible or what's in it but that have good hearts. This is what Jesus along with his Father will do when ones are being judged. Also the majority of humans that have died all thrru history have not been Christia ...[text shortened]... why we pray daily not only to thank God for what he gives us but to forgive our daily sins.

so you dont have to turn to religion to be forgiven? 'if' im a good person (depite being called shallow and demonic) i will be judged as such and allowed into the afterlife, is this right?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
so you dont have to turn to religion to be forgiven? 'if' im a good person (depite being called shallow and demonic) i will be judged as such and allowed into the afterlife, is this right?

That depends on where you are at in time. The Bible clearly speaks of "God's Day" or "Armegeddon" when he will cleanse the earth of all unrighteousness.
The Bible says that only a few will survive that events when the Bible describes the "narrow gate that only a few will find".
Again when this day comes it is God who reads the hearts and will decide who survives thru his day and is allowed to enter into the cleansed earth that will eventually be brought back to a paradise which is originally the way the earth was to be.
But....it would be to ones advantage to get to learn about God, his ways and what he expects from all humans to have that opportunity opened up to them to have his approval and his protection when "his day" arrives.

Also being forgiven is only the first step. One cannot continue and knowingly commit sins and expect to be forgiven for those. One has to make an honest effort daily to not commit sins, especially gross sins in order to have a relationship with God.

Originally posted by galveston75
That depends on where you are at in time. The Bible clearly speaks of "God's Day" or "Armegeddon" when he will cleanse the earth of all unrighteousness.
The Bible says that only a few will survive that events when the Bible describes the "narrow gate that only a few will find".
Again when this day comes it is God who reads the hearts and will decide ...[text shortened]... ily to not commit sins, especially gross sins in order to have a relationship with God.

is your explanation of "gods day" universally accepted within christianity? or a part of your particular church's beliefs?

just to get this straight, everybody that has ever lived is resurrected to be judged and then the "righteous" will get into the new jerusalem. is this right?

what happens to the rest, do they die again? do we know what kind of numbers get in?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
is your explanation of "gods day" universally accepted within christianity? or a part of your particular church's beliefs?

just to get this straight, everybody that has ever lived is resurrected to be judged and then the "righteous" will get into the new jerusalem. is this right?

what happens to the rest, do they die again? do we know what kind of numbers get in?

‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’

(Revelation 2:9-11 NKJV)

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Revelation 20:11-15 NKJV)

And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

(Revelation 21:6-8 NKJV)

Originally posted by Suzianne
It'd be best not to follow Bertrand Russell, for there is a special place reserved for those who strive to separate men from their salvation. This book is especially egregious, since it has turned more men from God than any other atheist essay written since 1927, when it was published.

Really? and you get your statistics on people turning away from faith and their reasons for
doing so where?


Also stop talking about 'salvation'.

It's deeply offensive to tell everyone that they need saving and certainly your non-existent
god couldn't do it even if they did need saving.


You can believe anything on blind faith. And people do.
The harm this does is undeniable, and immense.
People should follow anything that teaches critical thinking and skepticism and teaches people
not to believe in anything on faith.

Faith is the root of all religions harm and evil.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Really? and you get your statistics on people turning away from faith and their reasons for
doing so where?


Also stop talking about 'salvation'.

It's deeply offensive to tell everyone that they need saving and certainly your non-existent
god couldn't do it even if they did need saving.


You can believe anything on blind faith. And people ...[text shortened]...
not to believe in anything on faith.

Faith is the root of all religions harm and evil.

I am not judging, but you probably know that you seem to fall into the category
of the unbelieving that shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire
and brimstone, which is the second death. See my quote of Revelation 21 in my
previous post.