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Let me tell you a little true story. I know a Christian brother who had a very difficult and rebellious daughter. Actually he was a strong minded Jewish man who came to believe in Jesus.
Anyway, he had a lot of trouble with a rebellious daughter who gave him heart aches all through her college years. Then she got sick. She was hospitalized. She was up to her ears in college dept. She was unhealthy and depressed.
Then she heard some news. Her, dad, whom she had given all kinds of grief, PAID OFF her college dept in total. He loved her and wanted to remove some of the anxiety she was under.
I am told that when she heard that her dad had completely paid off her sizable college bills, she lay in that hospital bed and just wept. She wept for the love. She wept for the forgiveness. She wept for the relief and the freedom she had from this rescue.
That's something like coming to Jesus Christ. You know that the dept has been paid. And you know that you know that you know.
(Enter Rajk999 ! "But you must obey the commandments of Jesus !!! " )
I didn't say that that relief was the end all. I mean it is the BEGINNING of a new life.
Originally posted by FMF"It's 'a system of belief and worship of a superhuman controlling power'."
Yes. It's 'a system of belief and worship of a superhuman controlling power'. Is that not what your belief is, by way of Christianity. I am not asking you to say all religions are "the same". You and other Christians either believe in and worship a superhuman controlling power in accordance with your shared texts and tenets, or you don't. And it's obvious that you do.
That definition works for man made religion. Religion is just that, a man made system of beliefs, rituals, rites and conduct designed to ingratiate man to whatever God he has created, or thinks created man.
"Is that not what your belief is, by way of Christianity."
No. My belief is the exact opposite in every way.
"You and other Christians either believe in and worship a superhuman controlling power in accordance with your shared texts and tenets, or you don't."
That's just your humanistic ideological world view about who and what God is. Because you disallow revelation you are bound by a purely selfish perspective in all that you imagine things to be. In other words you are controlled by your own humanistic world view. Because you choose to define the terms and meanings you are essentially stuck in a loop of circular logic that prevents you from seeing the larger truth of reality.
" And it's obvious that you do."
What appears "obvious" to you isn't necessarily or accurately correct. For one thing, while it is true that I and other Christians share the same source of inspiration, it is false that we worship a "Superhuman controlling power".
We worship and serve the living God, the creator of all things in "accordance with the Truth of God" as revealed by God to man.
The main thing that sets our faith at variance to all other "religions" is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It's an exclusive faith.
2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Originally posted by sonshipWonderful story sonship.
Let me tell you a little true story. I know a Christian brother who had a very difficult and rebellious daughter. Actually he was a strong minded Jewish man who came to believe in Jesus.
Anyway, he had a lot of trouble with a rebellious daughter who gave him heart aches all through her college years. Then she got sick. She was hospitalized. She was up to ...[text shortened]... ay that that relief was the end all. I mean it is the [b] BEGINNING of a new life.[/b]
The beginning of a new life means the end of the old. For the unbeliever it means the acknowledgement of the need for forgiveness and rebellion against his creator. That's the first step towards the beginning of the "new life".
Originally posted by josephwThe first step is the need for forgiveness and then to rebel against the creator? 😲
Wonderful story sonship.
The [b]beginning of a new life means the end of the old. For the unbeliever it means the acknowledgement of the need for forgiveness and rebellion against his creator. That's the first step towards the beginning of the "new life".[/b]
Will never understand you Christian chaps.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeDid you really not understand what I meant? Forgiveness for sin and rebellion against God. When one says no to God it is rebellion against one's creator.
The first step is the need for forgiveness and then to rebel against the creator? 😲
Will never understand you Christian chaps.
Don't you realize you were created? God owns you. In the end everyone gives an account of their life to God. This life is the proving ground. The life we lead, the decisions we make and the things we do don't happen in a vacuum. The record of our lives is being kept by God.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeWhoa there Ghost!
You mean of course equal ultimacy (Which implies a proactive God who intervenes to work sin in those who have already been condemned).
Is that really a God worthy of worship?
That is an incorrect interpretation and application of what "predestination" means. God did not create some to go to hell and others to go to heaven. That's a false teaching.
Ephesians 1:4,5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
First of all notice where it says "before the foundation of the world". Before creation God devised a plan. "Predestinated" means that God, before creation, made a way for us. "Predestinated us unto adoption".
Predestinated does not mean God chose some to be lost and others saved. That's a Calvinist doctrine.
Look at this next verse and I'll stop.
Romans 3:22a
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:
Unto all. Upon all. The righteousness of God is available to all, but is given to those who believe.
Logically, if God had created some to be lost without the possibility of being saved, then God would be unjust in condemning those that are lost. A major component of God's character is that He is just. Absolutely just. Nobody is being tricked into separation from God.
Originally posted by josephwYou misunderstand me old chap. I was discrediting 'double predestination.' - The Calvin belief eluded to by Eladar. (And it was to him I was responding).
Whoa there Ghost!
That is an incorrect interpretation and application of what "predestination" means. God did not create some to go to hell and others to go to heaven. That's a false teaching.
Ephesians 1:4,5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having ...[text shortened]... character is that He is just. Absolutely just. Nobody is being tricked into separation from God.
Originally posted by josephwYou stated: "the need for forgiveness and rebellion against his creator."
Did you really not understand what I meant? Forgiveness for sin and rebellion against God. When one says no to God it is rebellion against one's creator.
Don't you realize you were created? God owns you. In the end everyone gives an account of their life to God. This life is the proving ground. The life we lead, the decisions we make and the things we do don't happen in a vacuum. The record of our lives is being kept by God.
You probably meant, 'the need for forgiveness, because of his rebellion against his creator.'
(And i was not created).
Originally posted by EladarYou deliberately misinterpreted what I said on the subject. I said that in my flawed, human, overall insignificant eyes, all religion or lack thereof, regardless of how many people believe in it and regardless of how long it's been around, is equally right and wrong. This is because we can't prove one way or the other, which means it is in a state of true and untrue simultaneously a la the concepts presented by Schrodinger's Cat. By process of a very simple extrapolation of my words, you can infer that I view my own beliefs with a similar skepticism.
As long as he admits that his beliefs are equally as wrong as all others I have no problem with what he said. He neglected to do so. You can't do it for him.
In summary, just because I believe something to be true doesn't mean I will cling to my beliefs if I am proven wrong. I have no dogma to follow and no self righteous horse to step down off of.
For your convenience, allow me to say in no uncertain terms that my personal beliefs are just as wrong/right as any other belief or lack thereof. I am not special and neither is anyone else.
Originally posted by JakeChessI'd say your personal beliefs are 'righter' than most who post here.
You deliberately misinterpreted what I said on the subject. I said that in my flawed, human, overall insignificant eyes, all religion or lack thereof, regardless of how many people believe in it and regardless of how long it's been around, is equally right and wrong. This is because we can't prove one way or the other, which means it is in a state of true ...[text shortened]... as wrong/right as any other belief or lack thereof. I am not special and neither is anyone else.
Originally posted by JakeChessThen who is the correct god?
I believe it's arrogant to think that any one religion is right. Even within something as derivative as Christianity, you have so many different denominations thinking their slightly different version of the Witch's Brew of religion is the true one. They can't all be correct, but they can all be incorrect. I personally don't think some kind of perfect god character would be as humanly flawed as the one people like Eladar choose to bow before.
You, as an atheist, cannot answer.
Does anyone have proof of God?
No.