28 Apr 09
Okay. As many of you know, swine flu has been upgraded from phase 3 to a pandemic alert phase 4; and it does not seem to be slowing down. I will use this example because it is fresh in our minds. I hope this thread will shed some light, comfort and reassurance that God is truly in control. Of course comments are welcome. We (RHP) participants want to hear your shout-outs.
The issue of sickness is always a difficult one to deal with. The key is remembering that God's ways are higher than our ways (Isaiah 55:9). When we are suffering with a sickness, disease, or injury, we usually focus solely on our own suffering. In the midst of a trial of sickness, it is very difficult to focus on what good God might bring about as a result. Romans 8:28 reminds us that God can bring about good from any situation. Many people look back on times of sickness as times when they grew closer to God, learned to trust Him more, and/or learned how to truly value life. This is the perspective God has because He is sovereign and knows the end result.
It is undeniable, though, that God sometimes intentionally allows, or even causes sickness to accomplish His sovereign purposes. While sickness is not directly addressed in the passage, Hebrews 12:5-11 describes God disciplining us to "produce a harvest of righteousness" (verse 11). Sickness can be a means of God's loving discipline. It is difficult for us to comprehend why God would work in this manner. But, believing in the sovereignty of God, there is no other option than suffering being something God allows and/or causes.
when people are suffering, it is our responsibility to minister to them, care for them, pray for them, and comfort them. When a person is suffering, it is not always appropriate to emphasize that God will bring good out of the suffering. Yes, that is the truth. However, in the midst of suffering, it is not always the best time to share that truth. Suffering people need our love and encouragement, not necessarily a reminder of sound Biblical theology.
What are your thoughts?
28 Apr 09
Originally posted by MrMartinHis design is flawed. I wouldn't create man in this way. I would be design with a restistance of a simple flu like this. And resistance against cancer, aids, malaria, hemoroids, psycopathy and the rest of it all. But what to expect, he hasn't done it before. He is nithing but a roockie in the business of creation.
Okay. As many of you know, swine flu has been upgraded from phase 3 to a pandemic alert phase 4; and it does not seem to be slowing down. I will use this example because it is fresh in our minds. I hope this thread will shed some light, comfort and reassurance that God is truly in control. Of course comments are welcome. We (RHP) participants want to h ...[text shortened]... uragement, not necessarily a reminder of sound Biblical theology.
What are your thoughts?
28 Apr 09
Originally posted by MrMartinEven if it is the case that some (or even all) instances of sickness also bring about some good, that doesn't demonstrate that the sickness or the suffering that attends it is necessary for bringing about this good or the same degree of good. Why couldn't God bring about the greater good, or successfully accomplish his purposes, without the degree of sickness and suffering that exists? Can you give me any reasons to think that such things are necessary for his end goals for humanity?
Okay. As many of you know, swine flu has been upgraded from phase 3 to a pandemic alert phase 4; and it does not seem to be slowing down. I will use this example because it is fresh in our minds. I hope this thread will shed some light, comfort and reassurance that God is truly in control. Of course comments are welcome. We (RHP) participants want to h ...[text shortened]... uragement, not necessarily a reminder of sound Biblical theology.
What are your thoughts?
What would be the good brought about by, say, the following hypothetical case? Say a baby is born with an intestinal blockage and no operation can be done to save her (which are circumstances that in fact used to plague many babies born with Down Syndrome). So the baby withers and suffers and dies over the course of days. So what's the good news here? And why would this instance of suffering be necessary for God's purpose?
28 Apr 09
1 edit
Originally posted by MrMartinWhy create a world with suffering at all? If God is truly omnipotent and compassionate, how could he possibly do such a thing?
Okay. As many of you know, swine flu has been upgraded from phase 3 to a pandemic alert phase 4; and it does not seem to be slowing down. I will use this example because it is fresh in our minds. I hope this thread will shed some light, comfort and reassurance that God is truly in control. Of course comments are welcome. We (RHP) participants want to h uragement, not necessarily a reminder of sound Biblical theology.
What are your thoughts?
28 Apr 09
1 edit
Originally posted by MrMartinHi Mr Martin, i am always reminded of this little scripture whenever i hear of natural disasters, pandemics etc etc
Okay. As many of you know, swine flu has been upgraded from phase 3 to a pandemic alert phase 4; and it does not seem to be slowing down. I will use this example because it is fresh in our minds. I hope this thread will shed some light, comfort and reassurance that God is truly in control. Of course comments are welcome. We (RHP) participants want to h uragement, not necessarily a reminder of sound Biblical theology.
What are your thoughts?
When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone - James 1:13
thus for certain we cannot, not according to this scripture anyway, attribute anything untoward on Gods part, nor that God is the originator of sickness. yes he has permitted it, yes he has used it as divine retribution, but never in an indiscriminate fashion.
They way i have understood it, and it seems perfectly reasonable and logical, that sickness is the result of imperfection, a direct consequence of sin, thus quite contrary to what Fabian states, Gods creation was perfect, however it was subjected to futility and keeps on 'groaning in pain', until the present, consider this little passage, from the book of Romans
Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.
thus it seems quite reasonable that once the corrosive element, that being sin and the resultant imperfection which it has caused, once it is removed, so will sickness and death, for it was never Gods intention, from the beginning that persons should suffer, nor was it the result of a bad creation, for this was clearly perfect and suited to its purpose, but alas the creation has been subject to futility - what say you?
28 Apr 09
1 edit
Originally posted by MrMartin<<It is undeniable, though, that God sometimes intentionally allows, or even causes sickness to accomplish His sovereign purposes.>>
Okay. As many of you know, swine flu has been upgraded from phase 3 to a pandemic alert phase 4; and it does not seem to be slowing down. I will use this example because it is fresh in our minds. I hope this thread will shed some light, comfort and reassurance that God is truly in control. Of course comments are welcome. We (RHP) participants want to h uragement, not necessarily a reminder of sound Biblical theology.
What are your thoughts?
I deny it.
no evidence of "sovereign purposes."
no evidence of intention
no evidence of causation
no evidence of God
Bible is not credible as establishing facts sufficient to constitute evidence -- inadmissible as hearsay in any event. You can cite it to prove it says what it says, but not to prove the truth of what is said.
insistence on the contrary argument, absent probative evidence, is prima facie evidence of irrationality
in short -- you're nuts
I will add that this is not merely academic to me -- you are saying God made my son so ill he ended his life in a fit of despair for some "higher purpose?"
crap
garbage
all this assertion of yours stands for is a cheap shot, a power play by those who assert they and not I know the will of whatever lies at the center of existence, the universe and life and death.
I say you don't know any more about that than I do
28 Apr 09
Originally posted by MrMartinIt's because we live in a fallen world.
Okay. As many of you know, swine flu has been upgraded from phase 3 to a pandemic alert phase 4; and it does not seem to be slowing down. I will use this example because it is fresh in our minds. I hope this thread will shed some light, comfort and reassurance that God is truly in control. Of course comments are welcome. We (RHP) participants want to h ...[text shortened]... uragement, not necessarily a reminder of sound Biblical theology.
What are your thoughts?
28 Apr 09
Originally posted by SwissGambitdo you not know what the word omnipotent means?
Why create a world with suffering at all? If God is truly omnipotent and compassionate, how could he possibly do such a thing?
ah, but you used the word "truly," so there's your answer
simply add the word "not" before the word "truly" and you might get a clue here
28 Apr 09
1 edit
Originally posted by ScriabinYour answer is to re-read the sentence and take note of the word 'compassionate'.
do you not know what the word omnipotent means?
ah, but you used the word "truly," so there's your answer
simply add the word "not" before the word "truly" and you might get a clue here
28 Apr 09
Originally posted by FabianFnaswhy create something that is perfect? what would be the point of a perfect afterlife? would you skip through the movies to the ending? what is there to learn?
His design is flawed. I wouldn't create man in this way. I would be design with a restistance of a simple flu like this. And resistance against cancer, aids, malaria, hemoroids, psycopathy and the rest of it all. But what to expect, he hasn't done it before. He is nithing but a roockie in the business of creation.
28 Apr 09
Originally posted by FabianFnasalso "flawed" is subjective on your view. you might consider the human being as flawed because it is subjective to disease or you might consider the human race as damn near perfect because no disease had wiped it so far. in fact it is believed that no disease could ever will, that there will always be a percentage of survivors from which a vaccine could be created.
His design is flawed. I wouldn't create man in this way. I would be design with a restistance of a simple flu like this. And resistance against cancer, aids, malaria, hemoroids, psycopathy and the rest of it all. But what to expect, he hasn't done it before. He is nithing but a roockie in the business of creation.
you might ask god why did he sent diseases. he might ask you why do you whine so much and don't do something about it😀 so you see it is all a matter of perspective. you might call him evil for creating diseases, i call him benevolent for giving us life. life is a gift. will you look a gift horse in the mouth?
29 Apr 09
1 edit
Originally posted by SwissGambitanother foolish assumption of a fact not in evidence
[b]Your answer is to re-read the sentence and take note of the word 'compassionate'.[/b]
your concept corresponds to nothing existing in the universe
might just as well assume the planet Jupiter is jolly
neither other planets nor nature here on this planet can be said to correspond to the meaning of the word "compassionate."
the idea of a compassionate god is entirely a human fiction for which there is no evidence whatsoever
29 Apr 09
Originally posted by Zahlanziyes, one has to clean its teeth every so often
also "flawed" is subjective on your view. you might consider the human being as flawed because it is subjective to disease or you might consider the human race as damn near perfect because no disease had wiped it so far. in fact it is believed that no disease could ever will, that there will always be a percentage of survivors from which a vaccine could be ...[text shortened]... l him benevolent for giving us life. life is a gift. will you look a gift horse in the mouth?
29 Apr 09
Originally posted by ZahlanziDo you think god created human beings with cancer as an natural ingredience? Like cancer is good for us? Like there should be no whining, because cancer is a natural part of life?
also "flawed" is subjective on your view. you might consider the human being as flawed because it is subjective to disease or you might consider the human race as damn near perfect because no disease had wiped it so far. in fact it is believed that no disease could ever will, that there will always be a percentage of survivors from which a vaccine could be ...[text shortened]... l him benevolent for giving us life. life is a gift. will you look a gift horse in the mouth?
Why did god create cancer in the first case?
This is what is flawed. The 'great' designer couldn't create mankind without these kind of flaws, therefore the 'great' designer is a beginner, a mere rookie in creating.
What I can tell god has cancer himself, because we are an image of him himself...
29 Apr 09
Originally posted by ScriabinIt is not my concept nor my assumption. It's theirs.
another foolish assumption of a fact not in evidence
your concept corresponds to nothing existing in the universe
might just as well assume the planet Jupiter is jolly
neither other planets nor nature here on this planet can be said to correspond to the meaning of the word "compassionate."
the idea of a compassionate god is entirely a human fiction for which there is no evidence whatsoever
I personally think that there is insufficient evidence for any gods, compassionate or otherwise. However, I adopt their views for the sake of argument, if only to show the absurdity to which certain theistic beliefs lead.