@fmf saidWhy ask a bunch of people on a chess forum?
Why doesn't the Abrahamic "God" just kill the Abrahamic "Satan"?
In moral/ideological terms, what precludes your God figure from ~ in an inherently "good" act ~ simply killing "Satan"?
Answers more sophisticated than "it is what it is" are welcome.
Have the Jews, Christians, and Muslims in your own personal life decided to stop discussing such topics with you?
Why would that be?
Is your interest in this question sincere?
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@fmf saidGreat question.
Why doesn't the Abrahamic "God" just kill the Abrahamic "Satan"?
In moral/ideological terms, what precludes your God figure from ~ in an inherently "good" act ~ simply killing "Satan"?
Answers more sophisticated than "it is what it is" are welcome.
As far as we know (biblically speaking) this was the first time that God was called a liar by an angel (probably Cherubim). And yes the option that you have suggested was on the table. But let’s play it through.
So we get some pretty strong descent and we (God/heavenly realm etc) don’t want this cropping up again. So it’s got to be dealt with in a once and for all method; stomping on somebody doesn’t do the job as that’s the authoritarian stuff we have seen in play particularly over the last 100 years and it solves nothing.
Therefore it has to be played out so that this issue will not arise again. At the heart of this is wether man can rule himself which I would suggest in his current form he cannot; if we could we wouldn’t be in the current position that we are in Ukraine.
That’s the short answer but happy to explore.
@medullah saidSo "Satan" is, for you, a killable being that all "evil" can be traced back to, but "he" is allowed to do what "he" does by another [superior] being whose decision to let him live is "good", and this "Satan" is not simply a kind of metaphor for humans' proclivity to harm one another?
Great question.
As far as we know (biblically speaking) this was the first time that God was called a liar by an angel (probably Cherubim). And yes the option that you have suggested was on the table. But let’s play it through.
So we get some pretty strong descent and we (God/heavenly realm etc) don’t want this cropping up again. So it’s got to be dealt with in a once ...[text shortened]... be in the current position that we are in Ukraine.
That’s the short answer but happy to explore.
A fair encapsulation?
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What if God really hopes for sympathy and appreciation, instead of adoration, worship, and obeisance?
The humans of Earth are full of surmises and assertions about God, but what if some of those are wrong?
Maybe our God was a first-timer and did not anticipate the pain that would occur from giving life to independent children (and transitory ones).
As for Satan, he would have been one of God's children, and maybe God kept/keeps hoping for some kind of reconciliation.
@fmf saidOK, it's clear you are good with words, but this doesn't seem much more sophisticated than "it is what it is."
So "Satan" is, for you, a killable being that all "evil" can be traced back to, but "he" is allowed to do what "he" does by another [superior] being whose decision to let him live is "good", and this "Satan" is not simply a kind of metaphor for humans' proclivity to harm one another?
A fair encapsulation?
Also, I'll admit I am clearly unwise to respond to a petty sophist like you.
@fmf saidI'm not trying to do a Sonship on you with this but want trying to establish something, so please indulge me a little
So "Satan" is, for you, a killable being that all "evil" can be traced back to, but "he" is allowed to do what "he" does by another [superior] being whose decision to let him live is "good", and this "Satan" is not simply a kind of metaphor for humans' proclivity to harm one another?
A fair encapsulation?
Yes Satan is killable.
According to 1 John 5 :19 "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one." Which means Satan would have to control the political system.
In Revelation 13:2 we are told "The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon (Satan) gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority." The beasts of Revelation are political powers (established in the book of Daniel). Do we see anything demonic in the way that politics is run? Yes - there's loads, but let's overview the biggest.
Once a year in California at Bohemian Grove there is a Republican Centric (but not exclusive to) gathering of political and industrial elite - past and future presidents; Nixon called it "the faggy-est thing that he had ever seen". Here they enact the rights of Molech as specifically forbidden to the Israelites including "mock" child sacrifice. Baal worship also takes place (famous for the cult of the open hole) and male protsitutes are flown in. This is all well documented.
My point therefore is that there is evidence that the poltical system is interacting with forms of Satanism (if you havent seen it go onto you tube and look at the procession of those clothed in Red and Black in Cornwall at the last G7/20 meeting when Boris was PM).
I wouldn't describe allowing Satan to live as "good," but it will establish wether man can rule himself or not, though his position is not endless but finite. We currently see an endless daily slaughter around the world (not for much longer), which relects the personality of the being that the politacal establishment are engaging with - John 8:44 describes Satan as a "manslayer".
According to Revelation Satan does get destroyed (along with the political system)
A close encapsulation from you I would agree. I hope that my response wasn't too difficult to follow or mind numbing.
@medullah saidMuch to digest here. But, a side issue first.
According to 1 John 5 :19 "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one." Which means Satan would have to control the political system.
How does Satan 'having control of the political system' [1 John 5:19] square with Romans 13:1?
-Removed-I can't agree that hell is a place that exists as you seem to indicate (we've discussed on other threads), and we arent dealing with a controlled experiment. There is a mutany of a group of very powerful beings (don't forget the fallen angels too) which has far reaching consequences.
Satan directly challenged God's authority and called him a liar (Genesis 3:4). This charge has got to be answered for once and for all. Look at all the death and mayhem that is in world. It makes sense to answer the charge for once and for all thus avoiding a repitition of this problem in the future.
Killing Satan outright on the spot doesnt prove that he is wrong, only that God is stronger. The only way that both the wisdom of God's rule and his right can be established is with the passage of time.
Its akin to the saying "give somebody enough rope and they will hang themselves". This is what has happened.
Scriptually over 6,000 years have passed and things are getting worse. Man isnt more kindly to his fellow. We are about to see worldwide starvation when there is no need; probaly destruction and death on an umprecedented scale spreading out fro Ukraine (which wasn't the result of a need but political ambition); people freezing to death becasue of political positions taken; and I suspect the you and I are going to find our bank accounts emptied following the change in UK law which will allow the banks to force a "buy-in". People are going to be losing their homes on an unprecedented scale. None of this had to happen, it was a political choice, man dominating man to his injury (Eccelsiastes 8:9)