Why eyewitness testimony isn't reliable ....

Originally posted by Suzianne
But facts only help you to understand the world. They don't help you to understand faith. This thread is proof of that.

Yes, you never let facts get in the way of your faith do you?

Originally posted by googlefudge
[b]Those are two [at least] separate questions.

The answers to which are:

YES. Global warming has been proven beyond any and all reasonable doubt to be real
and caused by us. [we are not the only thing effecting the Earth's climate, but we
are by far the dominant one]

That is incorrect.

Global warming can be measured, but to prove the cause is problematic.

It is like proving that smoking causes cancer. It cannot be proven, rather, all one can do is draw correlations to what seems most logical.

And this is where belief enters the picture. Belief is merely connecting the dots to random facts that are then assigned value.

The fact of the matter is, you can prove precious little in this world outside a math class. That is why a belief system is so vital to us to try and make sense of random facts that have not been assigned any value.

Originally posted by whodey
That is incorrect.

Global warming can be measured, but to prove the cause is problematic.

It is like proving that smoking causes cancer. It cannot be proven, rather, all one can do is draw correlations to what seems most logical.

And this is where belief enters the picture. Belief is merely connecting the dots to random facts that are then assigned ...[text shortened]... m is so vital to us to try and make sense of random facts that have not been assigned any value.

Wrong on all counts.

However this is either a political or science topic, and not relevant to the
topic of this thread or forum.


Also, I am well aware of the problem of hard solipsism.

Which is why I consider proof to be evidence that when considered together
indicate a proposition/hypothesis is probabilistically true beyond sufficient
threshold that it is beyond any and all reasonable doubt.

Everything we know about the world is only known probabilistically.

Only an idiot would claim that this meant we couldn't prove anything.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Well then why do you guys claim to believe in evolution when nobody has been able to show that a monkey has become a human. The earth has never been shown to be 4 billion years old either. Your testimony is obviously unreliable. 😏

wheres wally

Originally posted by twhitehead
You claim there are 2.2 billion people who 'understand the real message of the Word of God'? That's an extraordinary claim.
I am fairly sure that:
1. You cannot find two people who actually agree on the details.
2. The majority of the 2.2 billion have significantly different beliefs from yours including some central tenets of your faith.
3. Many of th ...[text shortened]... same for some of them. (RJ Hinds for example does not think you should call yourself Christian).

The vastly more important part is that those 2.2 billion have all believed on Jesus Christ as their Savior and that he suffered and died on the cross as payment for their sins.

Are you sure of *your* claims? Or only "fairly sure"?

Originally posted by Suzianne
The vastly more important part is that those 2.2 billion have all believed on Jesus Christ as their Savior and that he suffered and died on the cross as payment for their sins.

Not true. There may be 2.2 billion people who put themselves down as 'Christian' on polls (or at least would if they were polled, in reality the stats are based on samples not an actual count), but you are seriously mistaken in thinking that their beliefs are all similar to your own.

Are you sure of *your* claims? Or only "fairly sure"?
Only fairly sure.

This might interest you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

A majority (53% ) of Canadians believe in God. What is of particular interest is that 28% of Protestants, 33% of Catholics, and 23% of those who attend weekly religious services do not.
One quarter (23% ) of those with no religious identity still believe in a God.[16]

It would be interesting to know in which countries these 2 billion reside.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Self reinforcing delusion.

You're the special chosen one that gets to receive the special message that tells you
how to avoid eternal punishment [or just being strait up executed in your version].

Unless you can prove it happened then even YOU cannot be sure it happened.

That was the whole point of the OP.

Memories are not even remotely infallible.


Also you should know better than to quote scripture at me.

"Pics or it didn't happen", eh?

Come on, even you know better than that.

Yes, I can be sure it happened. And I do not *need* to prove it. However, if you *need* proof to believe it, then that's on you. The consequences are still yours.

Are you really so unwilling to evolve just a little bit of your "fact-finding" over to faith and the knowledge gained thereof? Yes, probably. And that is too bad. But it IS your choice. You cannot convince anyone that it was someone else's fault.

I do have to say, though, that this "memories are not infallible" bit is creative, but it's still transparent. And not even worth the time it took to write it down, as an excuse. Unless *you* can prove my memory is not what I claim it is, then it still stands as my testimony. Again, it is *your* choice to believe it, or not. If my testimony is proven to be incorrect, then it is my responsibility and I can be charged with perjury, but still, it must be proven. And you can't even do that. What makes you think that you can conjure up proof that God does not exist?

Originally posted by Suzianne
"Pics or it didn't happen", eh?

No, that is not what he said. He just doesn't think human memory is reliable.
In certain cases, when there are independent witnesses, that can significantly increase the reliability of a claim.

The thing is, you yourself almost certainly agree with googlefudge. If I presented to you cases of people who were abducted by aliens, you would not accept their testimony as fact.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Not true. There may be 2.2 billion people who put themselves down as 'Christian' on polls (or at least would if they were polled, in reality the stats are based on samples not an actual count), but you are seriously mistaken in thinking that their beliefs are all similar to your own.

Christian is Christian. There are certain core beliefs. I only included the ones that no one can argue with. What you're bucking against here is the definition of the word 'Christian'.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, that is not what he said. He just doesn't think human memory is reliable.

No, that ( "Pics or it didn't happen." ) is exactly what he said.

He said that without proof, even I can't be sure it happened.

That is categorically false.

Originally posted by Suzianne
The vastly more important part is that those 2.2 billion have all believed on Jesus Christ as their Savior and that he suffered and died on the cross as payment for their sins.

Are you sure of *your* claims? Or only "fairly sure"?

Firstly, the story is fictional. It never happened.

Secondly, nobody can pay for my crimes/moral transgressions but me.

Thirdly, being a sin is not the same as being immoral, they are only slightly
overlapping sets.

Fourthly, Do tell me what I am supposed to have done that was so
terrible that someone had to DIE* [horribly] to somehow make up for it.



*Well, not really, cos when you die you stop existing, and JC is supposed to
have not stopped existing.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The thing is, you yourself almost certainly agree with googlefudge. If I presented to you cases of people who were abducted by aliens, you would not accept their testimony as fact.

However, if I were abducted by aliens myself, this would lend credence, for me, to their claims.

Even if I were not abducted by aliens, how many of these types of testimony do I need to hear before I wonder "what is happening here that so many people believe this?"

Originally posted by googlefudge
Firstly, the story is fictional. It never happened.

Secondly, nobody can pay for my crimes/moral transgressions but me.

Thirdly, being a sin is not the same as being immoral, they are only slightly
overlapping sets.

Fourthly, Do tell me what [b]I am supposed to have done that was so
terrible that someone had to DIE* [horribly] to ...[text shortened]... ally, cos when you die you stop existing, and JC is supposed to
have not stopped existing.[/i][/b]

Really? What makes you think that I needed a primer on what *you* think (or assume, I can't tell which)?

You cannot make such statements. When you do, the only options I have are: are you telling the truth or are you lying? If the truth is other than what you say, I have to put these statements into the 'lie' category.

No, the safest path for me is to assume that what you're saying here is a statement or manifesto of your beliefs. None of these statements of yours (1-4) are fact. Where does that leave me? I must assume that this is only what *you* believe.

Funny how what I believe is fiction and worth your disrespect, but what you believe is naturally, hardened fact.

So, tell me again, why can't I believe that about what I believe?

And I can only hope that you are getting where I'm going with this.

You have your belief and I have my belief. I can respect that you believe what you say you believe, even if I do not believe it myself.

How is that so hard to understand? Is having a shred of empathy so wrong? I'm talking about being human. And basic human dignity is all I am asking. My belief differs from yours. Certainly we're brought up to respect that others have beliefs that may not mesh with our own, but we do not laugh at them, or call them liars, unless we want to fight with them. And understand that this may have unanticipated results.