Why? How? - ultimate truth

Originally posted by musicismyworld
Why are you so rude to mostly everyone?

It's the chip on his shoulder....

Originally posted by musicismyworld
Why are you so rude to mostly everyone?

Your threshold for what you consider 'rude' is set pretty low. Here's a smiley face to brighten your day: 🙂

Originally posted by knightmeister
Good , then you will agree that asking a question like "how was God created?" would be pretty dumb?

Not if you're using 'god' to try to answer the question of what created everything else. At that point the question is a perfectly legitimate one.

Originally posted by jaywill
The last I heard, before the [b]Big Bang was the Tiny Blip.

I mean I heard that by some querk (no pun intended) of quantum physics particles fluctuated out of nothingness to existence. Now don't laugh.

Someone explained how the most microscopic and basic particles popped into existence. I saw the diagrams. I called it the Tiny Blip ...[text shortened]... icles "fluctuated" back and forth until they popped into the existence side of the universe??[/b]

That may be one theory, but I doubt there's any wide agreement on the topic.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I think that it's logical that there is some self existent , uncause reality which is the ultimate reality of everything. For some it may be the long sort after Grand Unification Theory , for others it may be something else . For me it is God. However , God aside , the idea that there is a supreme reality upon which all other realities eminate from is ...[text shortened]... nd how it was caused or why it is the way it is. This could be an uncomfortable idea for some.

that there is a supreme reality upon which all other realities eminate from is pretty likely and I think you agree with this

I agree with that? I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. "Supreme" reality? What I said is that I would agree that we don't have good grounds for accepting the PSR and that there is probably at least some brute aspect of the real.

I still don't quite understand if you are contradicting yourself or not. You say on one hand that there is something that is self-existent; you say on the other hand that the existence of this something simply has no explanation. But the point of self-existence is that the self-existent thing putatively explains itself. I don't know if you don't understand this or what. But it's like you say that God is self-existent (and thereby his existence is putatively explained -- by his very essence, for instance); and then you go on to say that his existence has no explanation. 😵

As I already said, I don't think the idea of self-existence makes any sense at all. So if your contention is that there is at least something the existence of which has no explanation, then we agree insofar as we think there is probably at least something brute about reality. But please don't start taking creative license and committing me to vague notions like "supreme" reality.

And I don't know why you are making an example of science throughout this thread. Your contention is that if there is some aspect of reality that has no explanation, then science will not be able to reliably lead us to an explanation for this something. No kidding! How is that interesting in the slightest, considering that nothing could reliably lead us to an explanation where there simply is no explanation? I don't find that interesting. What I think is interesting is just considering the antecedent of that conditional: whether or not there are brute aspects of reality.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]that there is a supreme reality upon which all other realities eminate from is pretty likely and I think you agree with this

I agree with that? I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. "Supreme" reality? What I said is that I would agree that we don't have good grounds for accepting the PSR and that there is probably at least some bru ...[text shortened]... antecedent of that conditional: whether or not there are brute aspects of reality.[/b]

But the point of self-existence is that the self-existent thing putatively explains itself. I don't know if you don't understand this or what.----lemon--

How does a thing explain itself? Is there anything you can use as an example of this in science or the universe? Bet ya can't.

Originally posted by jaywill
The last I heard, before the [b]Big Bang was the Tiny Blip.

I mean I heard that by some querk (no pun intended) of quantum physics particles fluctuated out of nothingness to existence. Now don't laugh.

Someone explained how the most microscopic and basic particles popped into existence. I saw the diagrams. I called it the Tiny Blip ...[text shortened]... icles "fluctuated" back and forth until they popped into the existence side of the universe??[/b]

Hang on: Are you panning a theory for being abstruse and speculative, invoked without due warrant to explain all that is? ("Now don't laugh."😉

Something about motes and planks?

Originally posted by musicismyworld
Why are you so rude to mostly everyone?

He holds to the theory that intellectual respect needs to be earned rather than freely given.

I can understand why you might find that to be a source of dismay.

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That may be one theory, but I doubt there's any wide agreement on the topic.

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Could you enumerate for me the say, three most widely accepted and agreed upon theories about pre-Big Bang?

What top three theories about the cause of the Big Bang enjoy the widest agreement?

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=========================

That may be one theory, but I doubt there's any wide agreement on the topic.

=============================

Could you enumerate for me the say, three most widely accepted and agreed upon theories about pre-Big Bang?

What top three theories about the cause of the Big Bang enjoy the widest agreement?[/b]

One theory, due to Hawking, is that it doesn't make sense to posit time before the Big Bang. No time beforehand, no preceding cause required.

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Something about motes and planks?
==============================

I am fascinated by these theories because I believe in scientific speculation and research. I always have been before and after I decided that the Bible would govern the major beliefs in my life.

One day was musing over some papers I read about Omega Minus or some impossibly small particles. I said out loud "Boy I wonder what is a trillion times smaller than the smallest atomic particle."

My then teenage son was standing around and dryly remarked "My allowance."

Anyway, the article I read was about the fluctuation of some entities in and out of existence of their own accord. The diagram showed how something like. (I gasthered) had been observed in physics and the writer was extrapolating it to apply to the basic particles of the universe.


I may be a Bible believing person but I'll give a listen to any plausible theory as to how God may have brought about everything. I know He's back there eventually. I just don't think it is in the realm of our knowledge to detect precisely where or how.

Existence is probably ultimately a miracle or materialized thought of God. We imagine things and they seem to come into existence. And we are supposed to be made in the image of God. So it might be a reflection of divine actions.

I think possibly this Divine Eternal and uncreated Person thinks up something and it really exists. I mean in the ultimate sense.

We are not forbidden to try to discover how it works. He doesn't seem to aid us in that by revelation on a detailed technical level.

Suppose Genesis was really about how God created the heavens and the earth. Maybe then there would be twelve volumes of books dedicated to one subject - a drop of water. That's just for starters.

Then the next sixteen books might be an exhaustive discription of what dirt is. Then after umpteen volumes of books finally we read - "Okay, now that you have all that knowledge, now we get to mankind. And God said "Let us make man in our image and after our likeness."

That's around Genesis 1:26. But it would probably be 89 libraries of books beyond the book of Revelation (number 66 in the Christian canon). Then everyone in the world would have wished that God had produced a more concise word for us.

Skeptics would retort - "He only cares about speed readers who can read an entire library of thousands of volumes. See, He doesn't care about most of us."

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
One theory, due to Hawking, is that it doesn't make sense to posit time before the Big Bang. No time beforehand, no preceding cause required.

No time beforehand, no preceding cause required.-----pawk


I 've always seen that as a bit of a kop out really because it doesn't really make it any less of a conundrum. It may semantically make the problem seem to go away but in reality I don't think it does go away. The question regarding something coming out of nothing for no apparent reason or with no cause is still a problem , time or no time.

Originally posted by knightmeister

How does a thing explain itself?

Good question. I don't really have the slightest idea how that would work, which is why I already indicated a couple of times in this thread that the notion makes no sense to me.

Really, I was just trying to understand your position more clearly because you employed "self existent" in your previous post, but then seemed to go on to contradict yourself (based on how that term is commonly employed in some forms of the Cos Arg).

I'm confident now that I understand your position better and that we pretty much agree.

Originally posted by rwingett
Your threshold for what you consider 'rude' is set pretty low. Here's a smiley face to brighten your day: 🙂

Thanks for the smilie! but I've seen you before to poeple in different forums where you're not giving smiles to everyone else.

Originally posted by musicismyworld
Thanks for the smilie! but I've seen you before to poeple in different forums where you're not giving smiles to everyone else.

I took pity on you. When you're no longer a minor you'll get insulted, just like everyone else. 😉