Originally posted by Tyto Knightmeister, the question may be simplistic but I don't think the problem is.
Let me put it this way, it is a requirement for me to go to heaven that I accept god and jesus and love them.
God loves me, and wants what is best for me.
God then creates me flawed and able to fail a test he set for me to pass.
If I fail I go to hell forever.
Why ...[text shortened]... n't exist and believers are trying to crowbar the evidence to fit the nearest model.
Why is it necessary for god to allow me to fail? How vain is he that he sets this test up? TYTO
If I thought this was the way it was I would join you in your disbelief. You are projecting ideas of vanity and cruelty on to God because you do not understand the depth of his love for us and his desire for real people with real choices. The way I perceive this is that this is the only way that we can really know him. He wants to create creatures that are "awake" as it were and capable of real love and real choices. Why? Because God is love himself . Unless we are capable of loving we are not capable of sharing in his nature. Would you prefer mindless determinism? Have you seen "invasion of the body snatchers" with Donald Sutherland ?
Originally posted by knightmeister Taking to misquoting me now? How low are you going to sink? Do you work freelance for a tabloid paper ? Try calling me a "retard" next and you'll be at marauders level.
By the way whose this generic "we" ? Are you the "voice of atheism"?
It's just too easy when you set things which are logical contradictions of each other, then spectacularly fail to spot it, mainly by shutting it out of your mind.
As Witty said, God gave him a brain, and it wasn't just to keep his blood cool.
Originally posted by GregM But if God's love is a "gift," why is it wrong to "fight off" God--what right does he have to torture in hell someone for not accepting his offer of heaven?
But if God's love is a "gift," why is it wrong to "fight off" God--what right does he have to torture in hell someone for not accepting his offer of heaven?
GREG
Good point Greg , this is good. It's not so much of a question of it being "wrong" to fight off God it's just that it has consequences. What you need to understand is this. God cannot hand out happiness and fulfillment as if they were little packages.He is trying to hand out his very self. He knows that the only purpose for which we are created is to be in union with him. He cannot quench our thirst if we refuse to drink. It's not that God punishes us for refusing him , it's more a case of the refusal of God being it's own punishment. We punish ourselves. If we don't drink we will be thirsty. Thirst is not a punishment for not drinking its just a natural consequence.
Originally posted by knightmeisterGood point Greg , this is good. It's not so much of a question of it being "wrong" to fight off God it's just that it has consequences. What you need to understand is this. God cannot hand out happiness and fulfillment as if they were little packages.He is trying to hand out his very self. He knows that the only purpose for which we are created is to be in ...[text shortened]... be thirsty. Thirst is not a punishment for not drinking its just a natural consequence.[/b]
What you need to understand is this. God cannot hand out happiness and fulfillment as if they were little packages.
Can't he, though? He's God...
It's not that God punishes us for refusing him , it's more a case of the refusal of God being it's own punishment.
How is refusing God a punishment in itself? I don't believe in God; he is absent from my life. That doesn't mean I'm undergoing terrible pain in some fiery pit. I do just fine without God--I don't see that the analogy of God to water holds. If someone doesn't accept God's offer of heaven, they might be missing out on something good, but why is the only alternative terrible suffering?
Let's assume God created the universe and me. Great. God loves me. Great. I don't love God. This is OK too; I'm under no obligation to love anybody. If I loved God I would get a nice reward when I die. Great, but I shouldn't be obligated to take the reward, right? So I go on living my life independently of God. One day I get run over by a truck and die--and suddenly I'm suffering inevitable pain because of the absence of God? Where was all the suffering before, when I initially rejected God's love?
My point is that surely active suffering in an afterlife requires active infliction of that suffering by God. Why isn't some neutral afterlife possible--or oblivion?
Originally posted by GregM [b]What you need to understand is this. God cannot hand out happiness and fulfillment as if they were little packages.
Can't he, though? He's God...
It's not that God punishes us for refusing him , it's more a case of the refusal of God being it's own punishment.
How is refusing God a punishment in itself? I don't believe in God; he is abse ...[text shortened]... that suffering by God. Why isn't some neutral afterlife possible--or oblivion?[/b]
Can't he, though? He's God... GREG
This is the whole point . He can't force us without violating our free will and making us into robots so he is restricted by a condition he has set for himself. In reality he could do it but it would have consequences , and that's the point. You also would have to ask yourself what happiness actually is. In Christianity happiness/fulfillment is not a separate thing to be handed out , it is the presence of God himself within us.
I do just fine without God--I don't see that the analogy of God to water holds.GREG
If you ever became a Christian you would realise that God was with you and helping you through life when you were an Atheist. The idea of "I'm doing just fine without God" is an illusion because you are not without God. You God is only interested in Christians and has no involvement with anyone else? His love sustains you anyway , it's just you don't realise it.
Originally posted by GregM [b]What you need to understand is this. God cannot hand out happiness and fulfillment as if they were little packages.
Can't he, though? He's God...
It's not that God punishes us for refusing him , it's more a case of the refusal of God being it's own punishment.
How is refusing God a punishment in itself? I don't believe in God; he is abse ...[text shortened]... that suffering by God. Why isn't some neutral afterlife possible--or oblivion?[/b]
If I loved God I would get a nice reward when I die GREG
That's not the way it works. Love is it's own reward.
Originally posted by knightmeister If you ever became a Christian you would realise that God was with you and helping you through life when you were an Atheist.
Originally posted by whodey So you would do the same thing to a loved one that chose not to love you back? You would consider turning them into a robot to love you back?
Originally posted by dj2becker So would I if a person trampled underfoot the blood of my only son, who willingly gave his last drop to redeem them.
Then you're God is a spiteful, vindictive and irrational entity considering He supposedly sent his "Son" (who, unlike yours if you ever have one, is actually Him, too) in the full knowledge that He would die (and would have whether it was on the cross or not). Eternal punishment is also disproportionate for ANY offense.
Originally posted by knightmeister This is the whole point . He can't force us without violating our free will and making us into robots so he is restricted by a condition he has set for himself. In reality he could do it but it would have consequences , and that's the point. You also would have to ask yourself what happiness actually is. In Christianity happiness/fulfillment is not a sep ...[text shortened]... olvement with anyone else? His love sustains you anyway , it's just you don't realise it.[/b]
In Christianity happiness/fulfillment is not a separate thing to be handed out , it is the presence of God himself within us.
OK.
The idea of "I'm doing just fine without God" is an illusion because you are not without God.
Ah. How do I fix that then? Any way to make it clear to God that he can stop propping me up now? I ought to be able to excercise my free will and live life without God's "help." I'd like to make life meaningful to me in my own way, not God's.
Furthermore, if God is with me now even though I reject him, why should that change when I die?
Originally posted by GregM [b]In Christianity happiness/fulfillment is not a separate thing to be handed out , it is the presence of God himself within us.
OK.
The idea of "I'm doing just fine without God" is an illusion because you are not without God.
Ah. How do I fix that then? Any way to make it clear to God that he can stop propping me up now? I ought to be abl ...[text shortened]... more, if God is with me now even though I reject him, why should that change when I die?[/b]
You can exercise your free will to choose him or not to choose him but he can't not be involved in your life . If he were to stop propping you up then you would die and wither. You can make your own life meaningful and your perception will be that you are doing it without him but it will be an illusion nevertheless , unless you choose to make your life meaningful in the same way Stalin did that is. You may seek goodness and love and value humanity and compassion , and in following these things you will be following God unknowingly. Infact , one could say God is prompting you to find meaning.
One could also say that you may think you have rejected him but maybe you haven't. Your perception of him bears little resemblance to what I know of God so I would argue that you don't know him very well. So how can you reject what you don't know or understand? He is with you now even in your reluctance and he will try his best to take you to heaven or to structure you life in such a way that you will awaken to him but if you choose not to know or seek? It's not for me or anyone else to judge.
Originally posted by knightmeister You can exercise your free will to choose him or not to choose him but he can't not be involved in your life . If he were to stop propping you up then you would die and wither. You can make your own life meaningful and your perception will be that you are doing it without him but it will be an illusion nevertheless , unless you choose to make your life ...[text shortened]... aken to him but if you choose not to know or seek? It's not for me or anyone else to judge.
Why not robots?
19 Mar '07 00:45
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