1. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    04 Apr '05 15:41
    As a theist I don't necesserily believe that man invented the concept of God. But as an intellectual, I have to consider the possibility with an honest and open mind. This question is for the atheists especially, but all are welcome to chime in. If there is no God, why would man invent Him? Why would such an advanced rational race of beings need God (Allah, Baal, the Great Spirit, whatever) hovering overhead all the time? Well?

    ... --- ...
  2. Donationrwingett
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    04 Apr '05 15:56
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    As a theist I don't necesserily believe that man invented the concept of God. But as an intellectual, I have to consider the possibility with an honest and open mind. This question is for the atheists especially, but all are welcome to chime in. If there is no God, why would man invent Him? Why would such an advanced rational race of beings need Go ...[text shortened]... (Allah, Baal, the Great Spirit, whatever) hovering overhead all the time? Well?

    ... --- ...
    Mankind is not nearly as rational as they like to think they are. We are capable of moments of great reason, but sadly superstition still has a great hold over most of us. Pre-scientific cultures invented gods because they were unable to explain the universe by themselves. As our knowledge increased, our supposed need for god has greatly diminished. God has become an antiquated anachronism. But belief in god has become so culturally ingrained that it will take many more years before mankind will feel comfortably enough to travel without the security blanket that belief provides.
  3. Felicific Forest
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    04 Apr '05 16:24
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Mankind is not nearly as rational as they like to think they are. We are capable of moments of great reason, but sadly superstition still has a great hold over most of us. Pre-scientific cultures invented gods because they were unable to explain the universe by themselves. As our knowledge increased, our supposed need for god has greatly diminished. God has ...[text shortened]... nkind will feel comfortably enough to travel without the security blanket that belief provides.

    Your stances are so old-fashioned. Nobody in his right mind and with enough knowledge about Christianity, Science and the relationship between the two will still claim such outdated notions. Please, why don't you go and update your knowledge using reliable and serious sources.
  4. Donationrwingett
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    04 Apr '05 16:45
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    Your stances are so old-fashioned. Nobody in his right mind and with enough knowledge about Christianity, Science and the relationship between the two will still claim such outdated notions. Please, why don't you go and update your knowledge using reliable and serious sources.
    You're relying on medieval dogma and you call me old fashioned? Excuse me if I find this attack of yours to be amusing.
  5. Standard memberColetti
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    04 Apr '05 16:58
    Originally posted by rwingett
    You're relying on medieval dogma and you call me old fashioned? Excuse me if I find this attack of yours to be amusing.
    Woof!

    That's the pot calling the kettle black.

    Calling his dogma medieval to imply it's wrong is fallacious. The age of the dogma has no bearing on the validity. And your belief in the advances of mankind through science is a dogmatic faith in the concept of evolutionary progress. The question is, Rewind, does the evidence support your dogma. I think you dogma doesn't hunt.
  6. Donationrwingett
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    04 Apr '05 17:04
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Woof!

    That's the pot calling the kettle black.

    Calling his dogma medieval to imply it's wrong is fallacious. The age of the dogma has no bearing on the validity. And your belief in the advances of mankind through science is a dogmatic faith in the concept of evolutionary progress. The question is, Rewind, does the evidence support your dogma. I think you dogma doesn't hunt.
    Blah, blah, blah...stick to the thread topic, please.
  7. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    04 Apr '05 17:10
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Woof!

    That's the pot calling the kettle black.

    Calling his dogma medieval to imply it's wrong is fallacious. The age of the dogma has no bearing on the validity. And your belief in the advances of mankind through science is a dogmatic faith in the concept of evolutionary progress. The question is, Rewind, does the evidence support your dogma. I think you dogma doesn't hunt.
    oh cool , that means the Great Mother Goddess of 35,000 years ago is just as valid as the stone age God of 4000 years ago.
    btw She lasted 7 or 8,000 years before anothe god shows up and that was a bull god.

    But we dont invent gods so they all must be valid.
  8. Standard memberColetti
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    04 Apr '05 17:152 edits
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Blah, blah, blah...stick to the thread topic, please.
    Oh.....Good idea.

    I think there's has always been a need within man to worship something. He has alway invented something to put 'blind faith' in. Modern man has simply changed gods. Where he invented idols before, he has switched to science to answer the difficult questions. But has man become less gullible?

    These days to fool a modern man, all that you need to do is call it 'progress' or say it's backed by 'science.' Since the priesthood of science has the 'secrete knowledge' which is much to obscure to understand, then we must assume it is right. For we were raised to trust Father science for all of our needs. Has not 'evolution' proven the man is on a path to greater glory? Is not life richer and sweeter due to the undeniable blessings of science?

    Yes man has always made up gods to take care of him. He still does.
  9. Standard memberwib
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    04 Apr '05 17:21
    For our own self importance and arrogance IMO. Specifically the "afterlife" part of the equation.

    I believe humans, at least some of us, have a very difficult time accepting the fact that there is no life after death. That when we die we simply disappear and that's it. We can't get past our own self importance. So we created another life, an afterlife, where we are promised peace and love and all of our dreams coming true. But of course over time man has added certain stipulations regarding acquiring a ticket to this wonderful afterlife.

    Enter organized religion.

    It's not enough to just have a loving God and a beautiful heaven that everyone gets into no matter how they live. That didn't help the people still here on earth who were in positions of power. They needed something else to keep the masses in line.

    Enter Hell and a whole bunch of crazy rules.

    So we now have an afterlife that satisfies our human egos and gives a sense of something greater after our mortal bodies pass away on this earth. But we also have conditions that have to be met to get into this heaven. You can't just do what you want on this planet. So mankind created hell. Now there are only two options. We've eliminated the option of just dying and disappearing, now EVERYONE goes to an afterlife. The good ones go to heaven, the bad ones go to hell. The old carrot and the stick technique still works just fine.

    Now there's an element of control over the whole situation. All that's needed is to refine the rules. All of the hundreds of religions on this planet, all created by mankind, serve to do just that. Hence the reason there are so many religions and so many people trying desperately to lead their own version of the "How to get into heaven game".

  10. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    04 Apr '05 17:27
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    oh cool , that means the Great Mother Goddess of 35,000 years ago is just as valid as the stone age God of 4000 years ago.
    btw She lasted 7 or 8,000 years before anothe god shows up and that was a bull god.

    But we dont invent gods so they all must be valid.
    This brings up an excellent point that opens the original question up to all players. No matter what God or gods you believe in, many if not all of the other deities are false to you. Hence, there are certainly made up gods in human society. Christians, why did some people choose to invent the concept of Allah? Why do others insist on propagating the concept of the Goddess? Why do these people insist on following false idols, and why are these reasons not applicable to your own religion?

    ... --- ...
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    04 Apr '05 17:41
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Oh.....Good idea.

    I think there's has always been a need within man to worship something. He has alway invented something to put 'blind faith' in. Modern man has simply changed gods. Where he invented idols before, he has switched to science to answer the difficult questions. But has man become less gullible?

    These days to fool a modern man, al ...[text shortened]... le blessings of science?

    Yes man has always made up gods to take care of him. He still does.
    People "believe" in science and more exactly, the scientific method, because it has been responsible for great advances in human knowledge. I find ridiculous your skepticism towards science that you express by typing away at a computer linked to the world wide internet!! Did your Christian God whip up even a Model T Ford while He was strolling around the Middle East in a burning bush 3500-4000 years ago? Did Jesus find the time to invent the printing press so His ideas could be spread to the entire world?

    Man created Gods to explain things that he cannot; as more and more things are explained there is less reason for a God of any sort. However, the question whether there was (and still is) actually some sort of Creator God is truly unanswerable in our mortal existence. The belief that there must be some sort of afterlife is very comforting for many people not merely as a reward for themselves but also so that their loved ones who have passed away are rewarded as well. I, therefore think that the vast majority of people will always believe in a God and a pleasant afterlife, even if most of them will admit that there is little evidence to prove either's existence.
  12. Standard memberColetti
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    04 Apr '05 18:05
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    People "believe" in science and more exactly, the scientific method, because it has been responsible for great advances in human knowledge. I find ridiculous your skepticism towards science that you express by typing away at a computer linked to the world wide internet!! Did your Christian God whip up even a Model T Ford while He was strolling a ...[text shortened]... find the time to invent the printing press so His ideas could be spread to the entire world?...
    Spoken like a true believer.

    What knowledge? Can you explain the engineering details of a Model-T? Do you understand how your Internet connection works? And your microwave oven? How about the flue vaccine? Isn't most of your knowledge just superficial, and speculation? The point is, we take much of what science tells us on 'blind faith'. Which is not a faith rooted in true knowledge because it lacks understanding.

    But I don't blame you for wanting to worship the gods of science that give you all these goodies. That's only human. And the material advances science has given us has made us better people right? Now there is more love, joy, and peace in the world! Isn't that the problem of religion? Doesn't science make us better people? No?

    There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of critical thinking. Just consider what science has done for mankind - and honestly ask yourself if we are better people for it -- not better off - but better people.
  13. Felicific Forest
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    04 Apr '05 18:09
    Originally posted by rwingett
    You're relying on medieval dogma and you call me old fashioned? Excuse me if I find this attack of yours to be amusing.

    I hope you will agree that 1+1=2. That "dogma" is much much older than any dogma ever published by the Roman Catholic Church. Believing the truth is NOT old fashioned Rwingo.

    You can find my comments amusing but that does not make them any less true. You simply repeat the cheap notions you can find on any freethinker site on the internet, which all desperately need updating.

    Really Rwingo, please update your knowledge and please use reliable and serious sources.
  14. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    04 Apr '05 18:18
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    I hope you will agree that 1+1=2. That "dogma" is much much older than any dogma ever published by the Roman Catholic Church. Believing the truth is NOT old fashioned Rwingo.

    You can find my comments amusing but that does not make them any less true. You simply repeat the cheap notions you can find on any freethinker site on the internet, which all d ...[text shortened]... ing.

    Really Rwingo, please update your knowledge and please use reliable and serious sources.
    You're chasing your own tail. I often don't agree with what rwingett says, but I'll have to side with him on this one, for he was the one who was origninally attacked. You called him old fashioned; coming up with something older that is inarguable only digs you deeper into your own hole.

    ... --- ...
  15. Felicific Forest
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    04 Apr '05 18:27

    One of the problems with these discussions is that people who attack religion equate Christian faith with all the religions of the past.

    I wonder what would happen in the debate if "the other side" was to equate science with for instance astrology and "scientists" trying to change lead to gold. This is exactly what Rwingo, no1 et alia are doing with Christian faith. No meaningful debate can ever emerge from such stances.
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