1. Standard memberRajk999
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    08 Feb '18 13:552 edits
    There is nothing in the Bible called works-based or faith-based salvation. These are expressions used by certain Christians , in an attempt to belittle the teachings of Christ and the Apostles pertaining to good works and righteousness.

    There is only one salvation and one eternal life in the Kingdom of God, and this is obtained by following the commandments of Christ as Jesus stated so clearly and in such vivid detail in Matt 25, even repeating the same things over and over so that it cannot be misunderstood...

    - Those who enters the Kingdom of God are the ones doing good works.
    - Those who are cast out are the ones who do not do good works

    The sole purpose of faith and belief is a means to an end - to get the professed believer to do good works and to live by the commandments of Christ. Unfortunately faith has for some Christians, become an end in itself ie I have faith therefore Im saved.

    Christians use parts of the teachings of Paul to support this false doctrine. If the entire teachings of Paul are read and understood then the whole picture appears and Pauls teachings matches Christ exactly:

    1. Profession of Faith + Good works is the ideal - those who practice this are the elect of God, the sheep of Christ, the kings and priests during the reign of Christ

    2. Good works alone - these will find favour with Christ has he stated in Matt 25. they are not the elect and will not rule with Christ but by their good works Christ knows them and they will be rewarded. Christ is not unfair and unjust as some Christians would like to think.

    3. Faith alone - these will be cast out as mouth woshippers. As James says faith alone saves nobody and Jesus expressed his dislike for these types These are people who have a form of godliness, who profess belief in God but who are evil and sinful. These will be destroyed.

    The following would make an interesting discussion
    1. Pauls full gospel about faith + good works
    2. Why exactly should the teachings of Christ pertaining to good works be sidelined in favour of Pauls faith only teaching.
  2. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    08 Feb '18 14:13
    Wise man say, 'a person's good thoughts and good heart are evidenced primarily by their good actions.'

    Let the good Samaritan be a lesson to all of us.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    08 Feb '18 14:19
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    Wise man say, 'a person's good thoughts and good heart are evidenced primarily by their good actions.'

    Let the good Samaritan be a lesson to all of us.
    The Good Samaritan
    The Rich Man and Lazarus
    The Wise Man - who built his house on the rock.
    The Sheep of Matt 25

    All are examples of how following Christ commandments = Eternal life
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    08 Feb '18 17:15
    Salvation by good works is a false doctrine.

    John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 speak to how one obtains salvation.

    Those who have obtained salvation will naturally do good works as God’s Holy Spirit indwells them and changes them. But good works are a manifestation, or evidence, of someone who is saved, not a requirement to be saved.

    Jesus Christ Himself taught believing in Him and on Him led to eternal life (or being saved.)

    Those who believe salvation is obtained by good works cannot say how many good works are necessary, if some good works are more important than others and if bad works cancel out good works. Without knowing this, no one can know if they are saved.

    I do not believe God wanted His creation in a perpetual state of anxiety about whether they are saved or damned. The Holy Bible clearly says in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 how one obtains salvation - it is by believing in Jesus Christ in one’s heart (i.e. a strong, sincere, committed and self-sacrificing belief.) Jesus Christ also says salvation is by believing in Him and on Him.

    God’s Holy Spirit indwells all who accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour and it is God’s Holy Spirit that changes our hearts and minds and leads us in the performance of good works as an instrument of His will.
  5. Standard memberSecondSon
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    08 Feb '18 17:34
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    There is nothing in the Bible called works-based or faith-based salvation. These are expressions used by certain Christians , in an attempt to belittle the teachings of Christ and the Apostles pertaining to good works and righteousness.

    There is only one salvation and one eternal life in the Kingdom of God, and this is obtained by following the commandme ...[text shortened]... eachings of Christ pertaining to good works be sidelined in favour of Pauls faith only teaching.
    I take it that you don't believe that what Jesus did on the cross is sufficient to take away all of your sins.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    08 Feb '18 19:01
    Originally posted by @secondson
    I take it that you don't believe that what Jesus did on the cross is sufficient to take away all of your sins.
    I take it you believe that you can accept Jesus and then continue to sin and still enter the Kingdom of God.
  7. Standard memberRajk999
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    08 Feb '18 19:06
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    Salvation by good works is a false doctrine.

    John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 speak to how one obtains salvation.

    Those who have obtained salvation will naturally do good works as God’s Holy Spirit indwells them and changes them. But good works are a manifestation, or evidence, of someone who is saved, not a requirement to be saved.

    Jesus Christ Himsel ...[text shortened]... our hearts and minds and leads us in the performance of good works as an instrument of His will.
    What did Paul say about good works, or sin or righteousness.

    Here is one :

    But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.(Ephesians 5:3-5 KJV)

    Christian Saints who continue with sin has no inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

    What do you make of that statement?
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    08 Feb '18 19:322 edits
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    What did Paul say about good works, or sin or righteousness.

    Here is one :

    [i]But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean pers ...[text shortened]... ntinue with sin has no inheritance in the Kingdom of God.

    What do you make of that statement?
    I think you either do not recognize or vastly underestimate the power of God’s indwelt Holy Spirit upon the life of a believer. That said, the Holy Spirit’s influence on our lives is affected by how much we are in God’s Word and prayer.

    I would take exception to your interpretation of those verses as meaning Christians who sin have no inheritance in the Kingdom of God. First, Paul is speaking of specific and quite grievous sins. Second, Paul in the last sentence you quoted, where he lists who does not have an inheritance in the Kingdom of God, identifies such not by act but by name. Is a whoremonger one who slips up once or twice and repents in shame? Or is a whoremonger one who sleeps with whores routinely and feels no need or conviction to stop? Is a person unclean if he or she commits a sin and repents (and is cleansed by the blood of Christ?) Or is that person unclean if he or she continues to sin without repentance or remorse? Can a person be identified as a covetous man and idolater based on one or two examples of envying?
  9. Standard memberRajk999
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    08 Feb '18 21:421 edit
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    I think you either do not recognize or vastly underestimate the power of God’s indwelt Holy Spirit upon the life of a believer. That said, the Holy Spirit’s influence on our lives is affected by how much we are in God’s Word and prayer.

    I would take exception to your interpretation of those verses as meaning Christians who sin have no inheritance in t ...[text shortened]... n a person be identified as a covetous man and idolater based on one or two examples of envying?
    Using you and your words as an example ... you claimed
    - you are saved
    - you can sin
    - you continue to sin
    - you cannot avoid sin
    - you cannot not get into 'heaven' .. wherever that is
    - your good works is looking after your mother

    Is that the effect of the Holy Spirit indwelling in you?

    As for what Paul said, he was crystal clear and it is not an isolated statements.
    There are dozens such statements.

    Whether you like them or not they are the truth.
  10. Standard memberSecondSon
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    08 Feb '18 23:10
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    I take it you believe that you can accept Jesus and then continue to sin and still enter the Kingdom of God.
    Believe what you want.

    Jesus said, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins".

    Can you say that Jesus shed His blood for the remission of your sins?
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    09 Feb '18 00:01
    Originally posted by @secondson
    Believe what you want.

    Jesus said, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins".

    Can you say that Jesus shed His blood for the remission of your sins?
    I dont believe what I want. I believe what the Bible has. Regarding Jesus shedding of blood:
    - it is shed for the sins of the whole world
    - it is shed so that people can avoid the blood sacrifice for their sins
    - after accepting Christ people are cleansed of their sins
    - then they should continue to live as Jesus commanded
    - failure to do this leads to condemnation possible eternal damnation

    Jesus did not die so that Christians can continue on with a life of sin.
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    09 Feb '18 05:07
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    I take it you believe that you can accept Jesus and then continue to sin and still enter the Kingdom of God.
    God allows sinners into heaven if their sins have been forgiven. That was the whole point of Jesus Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross. Why do you think John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world?”
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    09 Feb '18 05:10
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    I take it you believe that you can accept Jesus and then continue to sin and still enter the Kingdom of God.
    If your sins haven’t been forgiven, how do you think you can enter the Kingdom of God? Surely you don’t think you have lived an entirely sin-free life. How were your previous sins forgiven? If they weren’t, do you think you can enter heaven with all those unforgiven sins?
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    09 Feb '18 05:37
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    Using you and your words as an example ... you claimed
    - you are saved
    - you can sin
    - you continue to sin
    - you cannot avoid sin
    - you cannot not get into 'heaven' .. wherever that is
    - your good works is looking after your mother

    Is that the effect of the Holy Spirit indwelling in you?

    As for what Paul said, he was crystal clear and it is no ...[text shortened]... tements.
    There are dozens such statements.

    Whether you like them or not they are the truth.
    1) Yes, I am saved because I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour and have put my faith in His work on the cross to cleanse me of my sins.

    How have your sins been cleansed? Can we agree a completely holy God is not going to allow unforgiven sin into His Kingdom? How have your previous sins been cleansed/forgiven?

    2) Saying I can sin is not the same as saying I want to sin or think it’s Ok to sin. It also does not mean I frequently sin. It just means I recognize, as Paul did, that as long as I am in a body of flesh on earth, there will be a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit.

    3) I occasionally do still sin but it’s infrequent and certainly nowhere near the level before I was saved. And we should agree that sin includes being angry at someone, looking at a woman with lust in one’s heart, coveting what someone else has, even if only for a moment, lying, etc. Sin does not just cover murder, adultery and other serious offenses. It covers way more ground than that and includes what many people would consider minor transgressions (if they considered them to be transgressions at all.)

    4) One could theoretically avoid sin if one lived alone on a desert island or in a monastery. But in the real world, where interactions with non-Christians and generally dishonest and deceitful people can be a frequent occurrence, the temptation to get angry (to mention one circumstance and potential sin) is always there.

    5) I base the belief that I cannot not get into heaven on God’s promises in the Holy Bible.

    “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”

    (Numbers 23:19)

    6) My “good works” involve more than being the sole caretaker for my elderly mother. I won’t go into what that involves because it was frankly a mistake to reveal something personal about myself but I do other good works (one of which is contributing money to Christian missions and charities, and I only mention this because I mentioned it previously.)

    7) The effect of the Holy Spirit indwelling in me is a greater manifestation of the fruits of the Spirit in my life.

    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.“

    (Galatians 5:22-23)
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    09 Feb '18 05:521 edit
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    I dont believe what I want. I believe what the Bible has. Regarding Jesus shedding of blood:
    - it is shed for the sins of the whole world
    - it is shed so that people can avoid the blood sacrifice for their sins
    - after accepting Christ people are cleansed of their sins
    - then they should continue to live as Jesus commanded
    - failure to do this leads to ...[text shortened]... le eternal damnation

    Jesus did not die so that Christians can continue on with a life of sin.
    <Jesus did not die so that Christians can continue on with a life of sin.[/b]>

    No one is saying He did.

    You seem to think that people who believe they are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and nothing else go out sinning like crazy because they got their ticket punched to heaven. Nothing could be further from the truth, and anyone who did that would not be saved to begin with.

    Salvation via John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 is more than mouthing a few words and giving Jesus a thumbs-up sign.

    Anyone who is saved by faith in Christ takes his or her relationship with Christ much more seriously and knows how bad sin is because they know what Christ went through to atone for our sins. It wasn’t just being nailed to a cross; it was being whipped and tortured to within an inch of His life beforehand.

    We agree on more than you think. Where we disagree is on whether anyone living in the flesh (besides Jesus Christ) can live a totally sin-free life. You think they can; I maintain they can’t, but I am not saying sin is not serious and should not be avoided, nor am I saying that I personally do not take sin seriously or do not avoid it whenever I can.

    We also (obviously) disagree on whether good works are a requirement of salvation. I think they aren’t but are a manifestation of someone who is saved. I’ve already given numerous reasons and verses to support this belief and don’t feel like repeating them again since all but one were not addressed the first time.
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