1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    17 Mar '12 18:191 edit
    One good work done out of a pure heart of love is worth more to God than 1000 good works done with an ulterior motive. God commands us to love our neighbour not use him in some crass points scoring exercise so that we can "get" eternal life. Away with such nonsense!

    A good work done out of love and purity with no thought for self is what God desires. Jesus tells us that we need to be pure in heart in order to see God. Good works that are done with an ulterior motive or out of fear are abhorrent to God and a sham.

    Such legalism leads to destructive cults and believers trapped in fear because they never know if they have been "good enough" to earn heaven. There is no assurance , only guilt and fear. What's worse is this kinds of thinking about God leads to judgementalism and it reduces people to merely instruments in order to get favour with God. It's manipulative and selfish and not about purity and love and it leads to self righteousness.

    They do not really care about the people they help because if it wasn't for the fact that they need to earn browny points with God they would not be helping you. They do their good works for themselves , to further their own salvation.

    It's a sham and it's not Biblical. It's just as repulsive as Christians who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

    Good luck to you if you on the receiving end of these so "good works" , they don't love you they just want to use you to get salvation.


    1 Corinthians 13

    1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
  2. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    17 Mar '12 18:301 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Good luck to you if you on the receiving end of these so "good works" , they don't love you they just want to use you to get salvation.
    If I was homeless and some rich man helped me out of it, I wouldn't give two sh y ts what his motivation was. So you want to win favor with God? More power to ya.
  3. Account suspended
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    17 Mar '12 19:291 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    One good work done out of a pure heart of love is worth more to God than 1000 good works done with an ulterior motive. God commands us to love our neighbour not use him in some crass points scoring exercise so that we can "get" eternal life. Away with such nonsense!

    A good work done out of love and purity with no thought for self is what God desire e over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
    if you have love and put on the Christ you will be motivated to do good works, after all,
    its those who are doing the will of God that will be saved, not those simply saying it.

    (Matthew 7:21) . . .“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the
    kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the
    heavens will. . .
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    17 Mar '12 20:21
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    One good work done out of a pure heart of love is worth more to God than 1000 good works done with an ulterior motive. God commands us to love our neighbour not use him in some crass points scoring exercise so that we can "get" eternal life. Away with such nonsense!

    A good work done out of love and purity with no thought for self is what God desire ...[text shortened]... e over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
    Estrogen. Google it. Thats your problem.
  5. SubscriberSuzianne
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    17 Mar '12 23:29
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Estrogen. Google it. Thats your problem.
    Don't you even go there.

    But since you did, I daresay that far more evil in this world has been wrought by testosterone than estrogen.

    Google it.
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    18 Mar '12 00:50
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Don't you even go there.

    But since you did, I daresay that far more evil in this world has been wrought by testosterone than estrogen.

    Google it.
    Lol.. perfect comeback. 🙂
  7. Subscribersonhouse
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    18 Mar '12 01:241 edit
    I think I already told folks here about my good deed, finding an interstate truck overturned in Canada, people watching, thumbs up their arse just staring, I saw the guy pinned inside, with seats broken off and pinning him down, and fuel dripping out the fuel tanks, I just jumped in and crawled up the side of the truck and broke the windshield out from the inside so I wouldn't get broken glass in his face and proceeded to pull chairs and crap out from on top of him and he got out, I thought for sure he had a broken leg he was jammed in like a pretzel but he made it out ok after I busted the window.

    I am not even the slightest bit religious and had no other thought than 'this guy needs help and those assswipes standing around are not doing a thing' so I just jumped on it and did what had to be done.

    There was no internal calculation of whether I would get brownie points from heaven since I don't think that way in the first place.

    After he got out, we left, I didn't want to deal with Canadian paperwork, that was what I was thinking about.

    When I left, people were still just standing around with their collective thumbs up their collectives arses.

    Not trying to pat my own back or some such, just pointing out there are deeds done sometimes that have no motivation other than someone needs immediate help.

    Heavenly brownie points shouldn't even be part of the debate.
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    18 Mar '12 01:471 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I think I already told folks here about my good deed, finding an interstate truck overturned in Canada, people watching, thumbs up their arse just staring, I saw the guy pinned inside, with seats broken off and pinning him down, and fuel dripping out the fuel tanks, I just jumped in and crawled up the side of the truck and broke the windshield out from the one needs immediate help.

    Heavenly brownie points shouldn't even be part of the debate.
    "Heavenly brownie points shouldn't even be part of the debate."

    Absolutely right. But nothing happens in a vacuum.

    Pretty darn spry for a 70 year old man. I mean, jumping up and breaking a big truck window? 😲 😉
  9. Illinois
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    18 Mar '12 05:013 edits
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    One good work done out of a pure heart of love is worth more to God than 1000 good works done with an ulterior motive. God commands us to love our neighbour not use him in some crass points scoring exercise so that we can "get" eternal life. Away with such nonsense!

    A good work done out of love and purity with no thought for self is what God desire e over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
    Well put, km. But I don't think Rajk denies the importance of love per se. It looks like he prefers to underscore the contradiction between a proclaimed faith in a God who loves righteousness and the lack of any righteous works (or the presence of unrighteous works) in a believer's life. It seems correct to assume that there is something significantly wrong with such a believer.

    On the other hand, I think you are right to assume that the problem precedes works, viz., the problem is a sick, or nonexistent faith -- a problem which cannot be solved by abandoning oneself to legalism. But I think Rajk is partially right in his insistence that "easy grace" can be an intellectual crutch for any believer mired in the arousal and ennui of a sinful life.

    Dallas Willard has a great saying: grace is opposed to earning, but not opposed to effort. I think the key here is effort. You are right to affirm that part of the promise of faith in Christ is assurance and peace. As a believer you ought to have that, and not as a result of the good things you do, but as a result of what Jesus the Christ achieved at Golgotha.

    That said, an individual should be concerned, when examining themselves humbly and honestly, if they fail to see any distinguishing marks or accomplishments (e.g., victory over sin, righteous works, love of other Christians, etc.) indicating grace is at work in their lives. If none exists, of course one ought to repent and engage in the greatest effort to seek God and reignite (or ignite for the first time) the proper passion for good works present in a genuine lover of Christ.

    Again, though, the notion of "easy grace" seems to instill the germ of accepting sin as unconquerable and faith as some sort of free ride without any attending demonstration. Paul, who championed the doctrine of "faith alone", also implored Christians to examine themselves to see whether or not they were in the faith, implying that we cannot rely too much on faithful proclamations and intellectual self-assurances.
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    18 Mar '12 08:295 edits
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    Well put, km. But I don't think Rajk denies the importance of love per se. It looks like he prefers to underscore the contradiction between a proclaimed faith in a God who loves righteousness and the lack of any righteous works (or the presence of unrighteous works) in a believer's life. It seems correct to assume that there is something signif that we cannot rely too much on faithful proclamations and intellectual self-assurances.
    Hi epiphinehas,

    Paul, who championed the doctrine of "faith alone"???

    This is an inaccurate portrayal for Paul clearly expounded upon many instances that
    demonstrated the value of the Law and how it was to be viewed from a Christian
    perspective. Indeed his references include explaining Christ as a 'faithful high
    priest', how he offered a 'propitiatory sacrifice', to obtain an 'everlasting
    deliverance'. He speaks of a 'better covenant' and goes as far as to state that those
    who had a knowledge of the law had an advantage of possessing a 'framework of
    the knowledge and of the truth'. Romans 2:17-20.

    Yes it is true that the Law was 'a tutor leading to Christ , that we might be declared
    righteous due to faith', Galatians 3:24, and yes Christians are no longer subject to
    the ordinances of the Law in practice, but we are still required to offer 'sacrifices',
    are we not?

    (Hebrews 13:15-16) . . .Through him let us always offer to God a sacrifice of praise,
    that is, the fruit of lips which make public declaration to his name.  Moreover, do not
    forget the doing of good and the sharing of things with others, for with such
    sacrifices God is well pleased.

    It seems to me its the failure of certain christians to recognise the different aspects
    of the Jewish system, for example the communion sacrifice, or the guilt offering, or
    the temple arrangement (a shadow of the heavenly one) and how it has a bearing
    on a Christians faith, thus stuck almost exclusively in the so called new testament
    they cannot put the constituent parts together so as to form a sound and complete
    picture.
  11. Illinois
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    18 Mar '12 08:52
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Paul, who championed the doctrine of "faith alone"???

    This is an inaccurate portrayal for Paul clearly expounded upon many instances that
    demonstrated the value of the Law and how it was to be viewed from a Christian
    perspective. Indeed his references include explaining Christ as a 'faithful high
    priest', how he offered a 'propitiatory sacr ...[text shortened]... put the constituent parts together so as to form a whole and complete
    picture.
    I'm not sure what point you're attempting to make here. Yes, Paul expounded upon the significance of the law. So? How does that change his stance on "faith alone"?

    "If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

    "But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" (Philippians 3:4-9).


    Not everyone has as comprehensive a grasp of the Bible as Jehovah's Witnesses. But neither is such necessary to incorporate the salvation offered via Christ Jesus, through faith. That said, it's hard not to appreciate the insights you have offered here.
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    18 Mar '12 09:154 edits
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    I'm not sure what point you're attempting to make here. Yes, Paul expounded upon the significance of the law. So? How does that change his stance on "faith alone"?

    [quote]"If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to th ough faith. That said, it's hard not to appreciate the insights you have offered here.
    I'm not sure what point you're attempting to make here, mmm, ok, ill try again

    The point is that while the Law is no longer binding upon Christians in practice its
    principles remain as Paul clearly demonstrates. Yes the sacrifices are offered in a
    symbolic way, but they are still binding. Paul, talks of 'the sacrifices of praise, of
    doing good to others', James states that if one sees a brother is in need it is sinful
    not to help him, that looking after 'widows and orphans', is incumbent upon a
    Christian and is a form of true worship. All have their basis in the principles of the
    Mosaic Law, even Christ's 'love of God and of neighbour', has its basis in the Mosaic
    Law. Yes as you rightly state, we are declared righteous on the basis of faith, no
    question, however, clearly God requires something from the hand of a Christian, a
    symbolic sacrifice of some kind.

    To state as KM has done that this would lead to legalism or a guilty conscience, or
    that its motive is to gain salvation or spiritual brownie points is not really accurate,
    for such sacrifices are entirely voluntary, like the communion sacrifice of old.
    Indeed i think its quite the opposite for it affords the Christian an opportunity to
    demonstrate a measure of appreciation or gratitude for what God and Christ has
    done for them, indeed, how else shall they be afforded the opportunity to
    demonstrate appreciation for such things other than to give something back?
  13. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    18 Mar '12 11:28
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    Well put, km. But I don't think Rajk denies the importance of love per se. It looks like he prefers to underscore the contradiction between a proclaimed faith in a God who loves righteousness and the lack of any righteous works (or the presence of unrighteous works) in a believer's life. It seems correct to assume that there is something signif ...[text shortened]... that we cannot rely too much on faithful proclamations and intellectual self-assurances.
    I agree there are two potential pitfalls 1) easy grace 2) legalism


    The problem is that the Bible warns us against BOTH pitfalls. Rajk wants us to accept the problem of easy grace (which we do accept) without accepting the problem of legalism.

    It's a one sided discussion . His hatred of easy grace has pushed him into a subtle from of legalism. Whilst his hatred of easy grace is understandable and admirable I feel he has a theological position based on emotion rather than on scripture.

    It's a very simple baby and bath water thing. It has nothing to do with faith and theology and much more to do with a mindset.
  14. Subscribersonhouse
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    18 Mar '12 12:33
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]"Heavenly brownie points shouldn't even be part of the debate."

    Absolutely right. But nothing happens in a vacuum.

    Pretty darn spry for a 70 year old man. I mean, jumping up and breaking a big truck window? 😲 😉[/b]
    That was 5 years ago. Anyway I didn't jump! I crawled up that dam truck🙂 What really got me was seeing about a dozen people standing around with their thumbs up their arse doing nothing, maybe hoping he would bleed?
  15. Standard memberRajk999
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    18 Mar '12 13:03
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    I agree there are two potential pitfalls 1) easy grace 2) legalism


    The problem is that the Bible warns us against BOTH pitfalls. Rajk wants us to accept the problem of easy grace (which we do accept) without accepting the problem of legalism.

    It's a one sided discussion . His hatred of easy grace has pushed him into a subtle from of legalism ...[text shortened]... water thing. It has nothing to do with faith and theology and much more to do with a mindset.
    Legalism .. fortunately I have not been corrupted by the jargon of modern Christianity. But it sounds like a word the Pharisees would have liked to use to describe following the teachings of Christ.
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