19 Nov 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasEDIT: After I am more prepared (i.e., after I do a bit more reading on the subject), I will start a new thread entitled, "Zen and Christianity," where duality and non-duality can be explored with perhaps somewhat less mutual exclusiveness. I see a place for both.
[b]How will you get the goose out of the bottle?
I bet this has something to do with non-duality vs. duality... Am I right, vistesd? If I go about solving the problem constructively, then I betray my dualistic thinking.
As an aside, I would be interested in discussing more Zen stuff with you. Often I get so wrapped up in Christian doctrine t ...[text shortened]... can be explored with perhaps somewhat less mutual exclusiveness. I see a place for both.[/b]
That would be interesting. Again, Johnstone would be a very good read (I’ll see if I can find my copy).
I’m about due for a vacation from the forums, myself.
19 Nov 07
Originally posted by vistesdWe are told that the goose is "stuck" but that may mean it cannot get itself out, it doesn't necessarily mean that it could not get out with some assistance (whodeys vaseline for example).
A man once made a home for a small goose in a large bottle. The goose was free to leave the bottle and return as he wished. But, by and by, the goose grew too large and one day became stuck in the bottle.
The man did not wish to break the bottle, nor did he wish to hurt the goose.
How will you get the goose out of the bottle?
We are asked how to get the goose out of the bottle and not how to make it feel 'free' or believe that it is out of the bottle so reinfeld's painted scene solution cannot be right.
I am more in agreement with amannion who realizes that sometimes there is no 'perfect solution' and a difficult choice must be made.
A careful reading of the text however leads to the fact that it is not actually specified that getting the goose out of the bottle is desired by either man or goose and the solution may be that you do not need to get the goose out of the bottle (or wait till it dies a natural death).
The wise man of course simply says "its his goose, let him deal with it".
19 Nov 07
2 edits
Originally posted by Starrman10 hits with the stick! 🙂
There is no bottle, there is no goose, only the Buddha nature which cannot be set free, nor have freedom cast from it. It is only man's desire for all things that brings suffering.
- Brought to you by Bad Zen™
Though you understand the koan (I should have expected that), and have it some, your Zen isn’t “bad” enough. Too easy to say “there is no bottle”; too one-sided. “Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form; while, at the same time, form is form and emptiness is emptiness.” Illusion is gettin' stuck either way.
If there is no bottle, who/what is making these words? The bottle, like a house or an apartment, serves a purpose.
If one thinks he is a captive, is he? If one believes the walls are immovable, the room the world, is one not just as stuck? If the goose does not realize he is free, cannot be held captive without his consent, what then? (A helpful metaphor for me has been to think in terms of hypnosis, and myriad post-hypnotic suggestions that reinforce the illusion of captivity.)
“No goose” may be a bit one-sided, too. (The goose is Buddha-mind.) Given where I’m at in my own “work”, I’ll just say that it would be too easy for me to say that now. But thanks for that; such challenges like yours here give me another good kick. My Zen isn’t “bad” enough yet either. (I get 10 hits with the stick, too.)
19 Nov 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadA careful reading of the text however leads to the fact that it is not actually specified that getting the goose out of the bottle is desired by either man or goose and the solution may be that you do not need to get the goose out of the bottle (or wait till it dies a natural death).
We are told that the goose is "stuck" but that may mean it cannot get itself out, it doesn't necessarily mean that it could not get out with some assistance (whodeys vaseline for example).
We are asked how to get the goose out of the bottle and not how to make it feel 'free' or believe that it is out of the bottle so reinfeld's painted scene solution c ...[text shortened]... l death).
The wise man of course simply says "its his goose, let him deal with it".
The wise man of course simply says "its his goose, let him deal with it".
Damned “careful readings”! 😉
The goose and the bottle are both you.*
See my exchange with Starrman.
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* “So, dammit, why didn’t you say so from the beginning?”
Too easy. Part of my purpose in this exercise is to see how such an “eastern” parable fares when it is just dumped out—how various people will see it, interpret it, question it, from various angles. Where it needs “tweaking”, whether the (very Zen-like) process of tweaking as you go has any merit, or just creates frustration—and to what extent such frustration has merit in terms of “effective means.”
No-one can give anyone “the answer” to a koan. As bbarr once put, such language is intended to be elicitive. But, for one person poetry is elicitive; for another words do not work at all and maybe Beethoven’s Ninth is elicitive, etc. If one is going to use words, however, one needs to see how—and how well—they work for various people. That’s what I’m about here, and why I am so appreciative of you all who are willing to grapple with it.
19 Nov 07
Originally posted by vistesdThe bottle is a Klein bottle with only one surface. Once the goose realizes this, it is free...
Here is a traditional Zen koan—
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A man once made a home for a small goose in a large bottle. The goose was free to leave the bottle and return as he wished. But, by and by, the goose grew too large and one day became stuck in the bottle.
The man did not wish to break the bottle, nor did he wish to hurt the goose. ...[text shortened]... e in an “eastern” culture)—to see how various people might interpret it. Just out of curiosity.