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  1. Subscriber shortcircuit
    The Energizer
    09 Jan '13 19:51
    I am sick and tired of these smug little sportswriters who consider themselves as
    guardian to the Hall of Fame.

    Every single writer who turns in a blank ballot should be banned from ever voting in any
    future elections. And they should never be allowed to re-join once they have been dropped.

    This is outright crap when they turn in blank ballots solely to muck up the percentages.
    If you don't want to vote for anyone, withhold your ballot. They just screw up a process
    that is already so screwed up.

    In the infinite wisdom of these idiots, they managed to elect no one this year.
    With so many deserving candidates on the ballot, this is a travesty.
  2. 09 Jan '13 20:16
    Originally posted by shortcircuit
    I am sick and tired of these smug little sportswriters who consider themselves as
    guardian to the Hall of Fame.

    Every single writer who turns in a blank ballot should be banned from ever voting in any
    future elections. And they should never be allowed to re-join once they have been dropped.

    This is outright crap when they turn in blank ballots ...[text shortened]... o elect no one this year.
    With so many deserving candidates on the ballot, this is a travesty.
    I completely disagree if you do not believe anyone is worthy you should vote for no one. I do not believe in honoring anyone who used PEDs.
  3. 09 Jan '13 21:23
    Originally posted by quackquack
    I completely disagree if you do not believe anyone is worthy you should vote for no one. I do not believe in honoring anyone who used PEDs.
    Then they should just close up shop and declare that the hall of fame is now closed.

    You're a joke. You think players in the past weren't cheating? The only difference is that now we have better technology to catch cheaters. Cheating has been around since Adam and Eve.
  4. 09 Jan '13 21:49 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    Then they should just close up shop and declare that the hall of fame is now closed.

    You're a joke. You think players in the past weren't cheating? The only difference is that now we have better technology to catch cheaters. Cheating has been around since Adam and Eve.
    The magnitude of the cheating is completely different. Taking greenies so you could play after a hangover is completely different from PEDs which let a guy like Bonds from 30 to 70 home runs in a year when he was of the age where statistics traditional decline.

    The fact that cheating has always been around does not mean that we should accept it or ignore it. If it is clear that someone has cheated, there is no reason to bury your head in the sand and make believe that their accomplishments are legitimate. The BBWA was justified in using their power to honor those who accomplishments were completely tainted.
  5. 09 Jan '13 21:56 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by quackquack
    The magnitude of the cheating is completely different. Taking greenies so you could play after a hangover is completely different from PEDs which let a guy like Bonds from 30 to 70 home runs in a year when he was of the age where statistics traditional decline.
    You think that's the only thing they did to cheat? Also, how new do you think PEDs are?

    What about corking the bat? Using balls that are harder to hit far?

    Cheating is cheating and all forms of cheating are available to ones contemporaries as well. There is no "worse" or "less worse" forms of cheating, if someone who cheats is more successful than someone else who cheats then they are just smarter.

    You could probably wipe out half of the HOF if you were to rid it of those who were cheating and that's a conservative estimate.

    It isn't burying your head in the sand and anyway only PEDs which are extremely harmful to ones health should be banned anyway. As technology advances so should sports, PEDs only bring you to your genetic potential, not beyond and someone whose testosterone levels are declining should be allowed to take such course to stay healthy as your typical male would if the resources are available to them.
  6. Subscriber shortcircuit
    The Energizer
    09 Jan '13 22:02 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by quackquack
    I completely disagree if you do not believe anyone is worthy you should vote for no one. I do not believe in honoring anyone who used PEDs.
    You don't seem to understand the difference.

    Choosing to vote for no one is fine. I have no problem with that.

    However, turning in a blank ballot has the effect of cancelling one positive vote for all
    players on the list.

    THAT is the travesty.

    EDIT Are you saying Craig Biggio and Jack Morris, the top two vote getters were using
    PED's? They get elected if the blank ballots are not turned in. None of your "proposed PED users would have.
  7. 09 Jan '13 22:08 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by shortcircuit
    You don't seem to understand the difference.

    Choosing to vote for no one is fine. I have no problem with that.

    However, turning in a blank ballot has the effect of cancelling one positive vote for all
    players on the list.

    THAT is the travesty.
    The only way to vote no for everyone would be to send a blank ballot. Would you be happier if they just voted for somone who got no votes like Woody Williams, Jose Mesa, Rondell White and Todd Walker?
  8. 09 Jan '13 22:12
    Originally posted by shortcircuit
    I am sick and tired of these smug little sportswriters who consider themselves as
    guardian to the Hall of Fame.

    Every single writer who turns in a blank ballot should be banned from ever voting in any
    future elections. And they should never be allowed to re-join once they have been dropped.

    This is outright crap when they turn in blank ballots ...[text shortened]... o elect no one this year.
    With so many deserving candidates on the ballot, this is a travesty.
    I think you're being a bit emotional but I don't disagree that it is somewhat of a travesty. The writers do see themselves as guardians and they are clearly punishing these and other players for their use of PEDs and I don't think that should be their place. Unfortunately it is what it is and revoking memberships is not the answer. I don't think it's reasonable that every member of the BBWAA should be forced to cast a vote. It would lead to a watered down criteria for being a hall of famer.
  9. 09 Jan '13 22:14
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    You think that's the only thing they did to cheat? Also, how new do you think PEDs are?

    What about corking the bat? Using balls that are harder to hit far?

    Cheating is cheating and all forms of cheating are available to ones contemporaries as well. There is no "worse" or "less worse" forms of cheating, if someone who cheats is more successful than s ...[text shortened]... course to stay healthy as your typical male would if the resources are available to them.
    If you want to argue that we should keep out those who did other forms of cheating, I'm certainly ok with that. But PEDs allowed guys who were past there prime to become super human. PEDs completely taint a career and I would never honor a user in anyway.
  10. Subscriber shortcircuit
    The Energizer
    09 Jan '13 22:14 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    You think that's the only thing they did to cheat? Also, how new do you think PEDs are?

    What about corking the bat? Using balls that are harder to hit far?

    Cheating is cheating and all forms of cheating are available to ones contemporaries as well. There is no "worse" or "less worse" forms of cheating, if someone who cheats is more successful than s course to stay healthy as your typical male would if the resources are available to them.
    The most outrageous cheat of all time, Gaylord Perry, who not only threw the illegal
    pitch, he was ejected on 3 occasions for throwing the pitch, he admitted freely that
    he threw it, he defied people to catch him doing it, and he wrote a book telling how he
    did it... all before he was elected.

    How about ball scuffers like Don Sutton and Hoyt Wilhelm to name a few. These
    were illegal actions they played a role in, yet they are in the HOF.

    How about players with drug CONVICTIONS?? Fergie Jenkins and Orlando Cepeda.
    Cepeda did hard time for his conviction, 7 years I believe, and he was elected after
    he was released from prison.

    Federal tax evasion convictions. This is a crime against the government. The same
    crime as "lying to Congress". Willie McCovey, Harmon Killebrew, Mike Schmidt,
    Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle are but a few who got nailed here for their failure to
    report many of their cash payments they received for doing memorabilia shows.

    How about doing a disservice to the game of baseball? Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle
    and Whitey Ford are but a few who admitted to playing the game while drunk.
    This led to diminished performance. There are several others who did the same.

    We haven't even broached the sordid tales of cheating on spouses, spousal abuse,
    child abuse, and several other crimes that are not of high moral conviction and do
    not make this "ethics code" that the BBWA suddenly invokes.

    The whole thing is a sham and the BBWA has some inglorious bastards among their
    ranks that shouldn't be allowed the right to cast a vote in the first place.
  11. Subscriber shortcircuit
    The Energizer
    09 Jan '13 22:20
    Originally posted by Zamboner
    I think you're being a bit emotional but I don't disagree that it is somewhat of a travesty. The writers do see themselves as guardians and they are clearly punishing these and other players for their use of PEDs and I don't think that should be their place. Unfortunately it is what it is and revoking memberships is not the answer. I don't think it's rea ...[text shortened]... forced to cast a vote. It would lead to a watered down criteria for being a hall of famer.
    I didn't say they needed to cast a vote at all, I could care less.

    The problem is when they cast a blank ballot.


    If they withhold their vote, then there is no harm, but when they cast that blank ballot,
    they skew the percentages up and require even more votes to offset their blank ballot.

    That is a double effect and this is the travesty. I said I would revoke the credentials
    of ANY writer who casts a blank ballot. All members do not turn in a ballot, in case
    you didn't realize that.
  12. 09 Jan '13 22:26
    Originally posted by shortcircuit
    The most outrageous cheat of all time, Gaylord Perry, who not only threw the illegal
    pitch, he was ejected on 3 occasions for throwing the pitch, he admitted freely that
    he threw it, he defied people to catch him doing it, and he wrote a book telling how he
    did it... all before he was elected.

    How about ball scuffers like Don Sutton and Hoyt Wilhe ...[text shortened]... among their
    ranks that shouldn't be allowed the right to cast a vote in the first place.
    Why do you care at all about crimes that do not help your performance (tax evasion, failure to pay child support) or crimes for drugs that hurt your performance? The problem is whether your performance is tainted (performance ENHANCERS).
  13. 09 Jan '13 23:26
    Originally posted by shortcircuit
    I didn't say they needed to cast a vote at all, I could care less.

    The problem is when they cast a blank ballot.


    If they withhold their vote, then there is no harm, but when they cast that blank ballot,
    they skew the percentages up and require even more votes to offset their blank ballot.

    That is a double effect and this is the travesty. I s ...[text shortened]... o casts a blank ballot. All members do not turn in a ballot, in case
    you didn't realize that.
    I didn't realize that actually. Interesting.
  14. Subscriber shortcircuit
    The Energizer
    10 Jan '13 00:37
    Originally posted by quackquack
    Why do you care at all about crimes that do not help your performance (tax evasion, failure to pay child support) or crimes for drugs that hurt your performance? The problem is whether your performance is tainted (performance ENHANCERS).
    Because, the PED's you are so rife to claim were cheating, were not against the
    rules when many of the "victims" supposedly used them, and now it is the morals
    issue. All crimes fall under the "morals" issue. If one is guilty, they are all guilty.

    Performance enhancers have been in existence and used since before we both we born.
    It used to be uppers or alcohol or DMSO (you probably don't even know what that one is).

    How can you make a distinction to say one is worse than the other?
    This is your judgment.
  15. Subscriber shortcircuit
    The Energizer
    10 Jan '13 00:50
    Originally posted by Zamboner
    I didn't realize that actually. Interesting.
    Yeah, I think there are 550 members currently.

    It is rare that all of them even vote, but they can if they want to.

    Those who turn in blank ballots do so for the specific purpose of blocking the majority
    from voting a player or players in.

    Since a player needs to be list on a minimum of 75% of all ballots cast, you can see
    the effect it takes when 40-50 collude to send in blank ballots.

    As an example, let's say 400 members cast ballots with players listed on them.
    For any player to be elected, they would need to be listed on 300 of those 400 ballots.
    Now a group of 50 writers decide to submit blank ballots.
    This raises the new ballot total to 450. Then 75% of 450 yields 338 votes needed to
    be elected.

    This is precisely what happened to Craig Biggio, Jack Morris and Jeff Bagwell today.