Bill James on steroids

I think it is far more likely that Clemens knew that (1) a legitimate doctor would not give him performance enhancing drugs (2) it has hard to find a dirty doctor who would give him performance enhancers
(3) so he found an illegitimate "trainer" who would give him what he wanted.

I do not believe that professional athletes are all stupid and/ or niave. Clemens did not win Cy Youngs by being ignorant about in the ins and out of the game. He knew all about training (both legal and illegal) and decided the risk of illegal was worth it. I would simply be inaccurate to claim in any way that Clemens was naive or just was unluck to get a "dirty trainer" Clemens sought a "drug dealer" and used the drugs. To e Clemens should get the same amount of respect as any other junkie.

Originally posted by quackquack
I think it is far more likely that Clemens knew that (1) a legitimate doctor would not give him performance enhancing drugs (2) it has hard to find a dirty doctor who would give him performance enhancers
(3) so he found an illegitimate "trainer" who would give him what he wanted.

I do not believe that professional athletes are all stupid and/ or niave nd used the drugs. To e Clemens should get the same amount of respect as any other junkie.

I agree - not every athlete is stupid or naive. But I'm sure some of them have a couple bulbs missing -- just like some people in general do.

And I don't think that doctors and trainers were immune from the temptations to cheat. With all the money that is in the game today, I suspect that any hanky panky that I could imagine happening most likely did happen. Players deliberately taking steroids? Trainers secretly giving players steroids? Managers telling trainers to give players steroids? Supplement makers putting steroids into their pills without putting them on the label? If I can imagine it, I'm sure it happened -- in addition to lots of stuff I haven't been able to think of.

I also believe that we know only the tiniest fraction of what was really going on (and might still be going on -- seems like a lot of HRs are still being hit these days). I fear that when all of this comes to light, we're no longer going to speculating about who was cheating, we're going to be debating over which players were totally clean.

I think that the clean players made a big mistake listening to their union and not demand testing. At this point I feel that there is an assumption that (almost) everyone cheats. It is unfortunate for those (and I am sure there are some/ many) who are clean and the accomplishments that are untainted.
Sure their is a temptation for trainers to cheat. But there are many reasons why athletes get millions. Companies do background checks on employee and have staff attornies. Stars can easily make over $100 million in their life. They can't just hire anyone and claim they were ignorant.

Originally posted by quackquack
I think it is far more likely that Clemens knew that (1) a legitimate doctor would not give him performance enhancing drugs (2) it has hard to find a dirty doctor who would give him performance enhancers
(3) so he found an illegitimate "trainer" who would give him what he wanted.

I do not believe that professional athletes are all stupid and/ or niave ...[text shortened]... nd used the drugs. To e Clemens should get the same amount of respect as any other junkie.

Please stick to what you have the capacity to understand. Your supposition is not even close to accurate. Furthermore, you have no idea how far reaching this effect is. Many you idolize have been guilty of what you are chastizing now in players who took steroids. In the past is was speed, uppers, downers, greenies, marijuana....all equally illegal, all taken by many of the players currently in the hallowed Hall of Fame. No difference, it is just some people decided to make a case about this. Stop for a second and ask why the entire list of every player who has failed a test is not out of the game. One reason, there would be no game. Second reason, the owners don't want to be viewed with the contempt they should be because they were the ones who encouraged this in the beginning. Pollyanna truly lives if you cannot see the forest for the trees here.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Please stick to what you have the capacity to understand. Your supposition is not even close to accurate. Furthermore, you have no idea how far reaching this effect is. Many you idolize have been guilty of what you are chastizing now in players who took steroids. In the past is was speed, uppers, downers, greenies, marijuana....all equally illegal, all ...[text shortened]... d this in the beginning. Pollyanna truly lives if you cannot see the forest for the trees here.

First, and most importantly I am sure I have the compacity to understand this issue and I do not think that I have to show you my fairly impressive academic credentials to post on this site. You and everyone are free to disagree with me (actually it is more interesting to get diverse opinions in a discussion) and I never claim to be right only to post what I believe. However, I am certainly not mistaken because of an inability to understand.
Marijuana/ downers/ alcohol are probably more likely to hurt your perfamance than help them. As such if you are really serious about your jjob (including playing in the MLB) limiting their intake is probably advisable. Since you are not gaining a competitive advantage, I don't have the same concern as I do for performance enhancers. Nevertheless, I have no problem with suspending someone for using these substances because they are healthy for the individual or the image of the game.
As for uppers/ speed, I do have a concern if this increases your performance. I do not think the sport should encourage people to use harmful/ illegal drugs. When you see a "clean" person lose a job, an MVP vote or a game to a cheater, you effect the integrity of the game.
HGH/ steriods have a new magnitude of effect. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire hit homeruns at a rate that no one ever did without the substances. Bonds was arguably not even a homerun hitter; Sosa might not have ever been a starter; McGwire looked like it was likely his career was over. The effect on Ramirez, Palmero, Clemens, Giambi are also nothing short of stunning and much more signficiant than the other substances mentioned above. As the potential benefit from cheating increases so is my concern. The fact that the negative side effects are greater should also be of concern. Baseball may have always looked the other way on smaller levels of cheating but now the magnitude is so great I think we certainly can't sweep it under the rug anymore.

Originally posted by quackquack
First, and most importantly I am sure I have the compacity to understand this issue and I do not think that I have to show you my fairly impressive academic credentials to post on this site. You and everyone are free to disagree with me (actually it is more interesting to get diverse opinions in a discussion) and I never claim to be right only to post wha ...[text shortened]... but now the magnitude is so great I think we certainly can't sweep it under the rug anymore.

OK, you are showing that you dodn't firmly grasp the context of what i wrote, nor about the uses of the drugs I spoke of.

Uppers and speed, greenies, etc... were commonly referred to as pep pills. They were not then, nor are they now, performance enhancers. They were energy boosters. They didn't make you perform better, they allowed you to perform at all.

The downers, marijuana, alcohol and the depressants were to allow them to sleep, to mask the physical pain, not to allow them to play or to enhance their performance. Back in the old days, players couldn't just sit out because they had a headache, a hangnail, a hangover, and some of the petty stuff that today's players sit out with. They had pressure to perform also becuase there were no long term guaranteed contracts. They feared missing a game because their replacement might unseat them for good. Ask Wally Pipp.

HGH allows the body to rapidly multiply cell and muscle growth and to repair damaged parts of the body. Now, HGH can be prescribed by a physician. Now, if a player had it legally prescriobed by a physician and was using it under a doctor's care, should that player be precluded from playing baseball because he is receiving an unfair advantage? based on your arguement, he should be tossed. If the stuff is ingested, it has the same effect, right??

Now put these into proper perspective and see what you think.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
OK, you are showing that you dodn't firmly grasp the context of what i wrote, nor about the uses of the drugs I spoke of.

Uppers and speed, greenies, etc... were commonly referred to as pep pills. They were not then, nor are they now, performance enhancers. They were energy boosters. They didn't make you perform better, they allowed you to perform at ...[text shortened]... s the same effect, right??

Now put these into proper perspective and see what you think.

Perhaps I would grasp what you are saying if it made sense.
(1) It is inconceivable to me that no athlete could not perform with uppers. The "energy boost" simply makes you perform better. This is the exact definition of a performance enhancer. I am not sure how this is even controversial.
(2) Unless you have a medical ailment downers, alcohol and depressants should not necessary to sleep unless of course you are abusing stimulants. If large numbers of professional athletes need to abuse downers to sleep, that is probably evidence that they are taking performance enhancers. (Like Manny needed female fertility drugs to counterbalance the side effects of his performance enhancers).
No one went to legitimate doctor. For example, Pettitte discussed drug use with Clemens; Sheffield got his stash from Bonds; A-Rod had his cousin "import" the stuff from the Dominican Republic; Clemens hired a crooked trainer. Sosa pretended he could not speak English. It would be a good defense if you had a disease (like Jon Lester who had cancer) and a world class doctor said this is what you need and it was on the banned list. I am sure you could get a waiver if that occurred. Congress/ the Mitchell would have been very interested if this occured. It did not.
It also is worth noting that when A-Rod had surgery and when Sheffield had shoulder trouble he did not have a cousin or a known cheating athlete cut their body. They rightfully so thought it would be wiser to see a physician.

in 1994, the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act was passed -- which stipulated that vitamins, minerals, herbs, etc were to regulated as food, and not as drugs.

It seems that it was around this time that there was an explosion of "weird organic remedies" -- and many people marketing these remedies claimed that the medical establishment opposed these things because doctors and big drug companies would "lose lots of money". A whole "alternative medicine" industry has arisen that caters to people who don't trust traditional medicine.

The big problem is that this industry has created a large gray area -- for the most part, none of these supplements are illegal or contain anything illegal - but at the same time, most of them are things that doctors would frown upon - seeing them as a waste of money at best, and possibly a health risk ("ephedra" comes to mind here). But the packaging, and the stores that sell them make them seem to be "legitimate". And of course each supplement comes with a list of anecdotes from people raving about them.

So you now have three tiers -- traditional medicine, alternative medicine, and illegal medicine -- with the lines between each tier often being rather blurred. So I can easily imagine a player becoming accustomed to frequently experimenting with alternative medicines and getting involved in something illegal without really understanding what they were doing.

Was it just be a coincidence that baseball's "steroid era" began after the 1994 law was passed? Obviously, the repercussions of the 1994 baseball strike also played a role as the owners didn't really want to know why so many more HRs were suddenly being hit.

Originally posted by quackquack
I think that the clean players made a big mistake listening to their union and not demand testing. At this point I feel that there is an assumption that (almost) everyone cheats. It is unfortunate for those (and I am sure there are some/ many) who are clean and the accomplishments that are untainted.
Sure their is a temptation for trainers to cheat. ...[text shortened]... make over $100 million in their life. They can't just hire anyone and claim they were ignorant.

I agree -- the clean players should have made a strong stand here. Why would they want to be forced to compete on an unlevel playing field? Doesn't make much sense.

Unless....there just weren't that many clean players.

A relative small number of sources has been able to implicate a pretty high number of players. I fear that for every case we know about, there are five to ten others whose transgressions have not yet been made public.

I agree that we probably only caught a small percentage of those who cheat. I also believe that there has to be a group of people who stopped cheating when they found out they would be tested.
Nevertheless, I sincerely hope that (and believe it likely) that many players did not use HGH or steriods and just were willing to (1) let the union handle it (2) did not want to be a snitch (3) believed (maybe incorrectly) that it did not put them at a competitive disadvantage (4)
just did not know what others were doing (5) just thought it was a bad have health/ image risks.
HGH/ steriods are not non-traditional medicines or remedies like acupuncture which a chiropracture would be fighting to stop. They are traditional medicine (with dangerous side effects) which some athletes have decided to use to augment their natural abilities. I believe it is significant how steriods/ performance enhancersd are obtained. They are not gotten for free from team doctors or with a $10 co-pay like other medicines but instead purchased from shady people (in a manner similar to other illegal banned substances)

Originally posted by quackquack
Perhaps I would grasp what you are saying if it made sense.
(1) It is inconceivable to me that no athlete could not perform with uppers. The "energy boost" simply makes you perform better. This is the exact definition of a performance enhancer. I am not sure how this is even controversial.
(2) Unless you have a medical ailment downers, alcohol and de ...[text shortened]... ing athlete cut their body. They rightfully so thought it would be wiser to see a physician.

Obviously you have never "performed" on uppers. It is a huge misconception you are making to call them performance enhancers, They simply are a stimulus to allow you to perform, but they don't make you stronger or faster or more of anything.

The painkillers are taken because of the pain in their bodies form the battering they take. I am really wasting my breath on you because you really have no idea what in the heck you are talking about. You are like the door to door Bible thumper preaching the salvation of all, for only $24.95. Get a grip!! This is real life and it is not as black and white as you paint it. It is also not solely attributable to athletes. White collar workers utilize many of the same stimulants and depressants in their daily regimine, it just doesn't get media hype that athletes, actors and musicians get. Tell me why Keith Richards or Charlie Sheen or many of the others just like them are allowed to carry on, mostly after paying a few fines. But, athletes are labeled as cheats. Don't think some of those buff actors/ actresses are roid users?

I got a real big tip for you. The law and justice are two very different animals. You can get just as much justice as you can afford. That sure says alot about society today, but it is accurate. Sorry to burst your bubble. Walk a mile in the shoes before you ever claim to understand what the walk was about.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Obviously you have never "performed" on uppers. It is a huge misconception you are making to call them performance enhancers, They simply are a stimulus to allow you to perform, but they don't make you stronger or faster or more of anything.

The painkillers are taken because of the pain in their bodies form the battering they take. I am really wastin ...[text shortened]... bble. Walk a mile in the shoes before you ever claim to understand what the walk was about.

I'm sure the effect of stimulants is mostly pyschological. But there are those days during a long season when you're worn out and just don't feel like playing - and the stimulant allows you to get your "edge" back. I'm sure anyone who's played sports knows they don't do as well when they're feeling "flat".

But this is what makes stimulants dangerous. On those days when you're feeling worn down, your body is telling you that it really needs a day off. The small injuries and stresses are starting to accumulate and the healing process isn't able to keep up. Taking a stimulant makes you feel better, but this just allows you to push your body beyond where it should go -- ultimately leading to a more serious injury or illness later on.

The stimulants also become a crutch -- you find you can't get up for a game unless you take a bunch of pills or else you end up addicted to them.

Originally posted by shortcircuit
Obviously you have never "performed" on uppers. It is a huge misconception you are making to call them performance enhancers, They simply are a stimulus to allow you to perform, but they don't make you stronger or faster or more of anything.

The painkillers are taken because of the pain in their bodies form the battering they take. I am really wastin ...[text shortened]... bble. Walk a mile in the shoes before you ever claim to understand what the walk was about.

I never stated, nor do I believe, that athletes are the only ones who abuse drugs. I think it goes without saying that society should be against drug abuse in all walks of life. But we don't have 5-7% of Wall Streeters testing positive for steriods. It simply would not help them do their job, nor would any white collar worker be tempted to use HGH/ steriods so they could perform their job as well as the guy next to them.
Performance enhancers are, as them name implies, drugs primarily designed to increase performance. The Clemens/ Sosa/ Bonds/ McGwire/ Palmiero experience should make it very clear that HGH/ steriods have dramtic effects. It changes careers; it can mean that those who won't/ don't use them will be out of baseball instead of stars. It means that those who aspire to be better are tempted/ actually use them. The problem is much bigger in sports because you are judged primarily by your physical performance while in white collar jobs you are judged primarily by your mental performance.

I do not have to be a professional athletes to discuss sports. You need only look at the "crime" section of the average sports newscast to realize that athletes are not so smart that they are the only ones with the cranial capacity to set up societal rules about their craft.