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  1. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    18 Jun '12 20:58
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-57455533/roger-clemens-acquitted-on-all-charges-in-perjury-trial/?tag=breakingnews


    Whaddya know.
  2. Subscriber shortcircuit
    The Energizer
    18 Jun '12 22:52
    The government didn't get Bonds, John Edwards, or Clemens.

    Their weakest case was against Clemens, yet the persisted.

    Stupidity runs rampant in the Federal government.

    I think Henry Waxman and Arlen Specter should be brought up on charges.
    Let the federal government represent them.
    Then they would do jail time for sure!!

    Congrats to Roger!!!
  3. 19 Jun '12 00:18
    Originally posted by shortcircuit
    The government didn't get Bonds, John Edwards, or Clemens.

    Their weakest case was against Clemens, yet the persisted.

    Stupidity runs rampant in the Federal government.

    I think Henry Waxman and Arlen Specter should be brought up on charges.
    Let the federal government represent them.
    Then they would do jail time for sure!!

    Congrats to Roger!!!
    Leave it to a Texan to give a bye to a Texan. This dirty bastard was so full of juice for so long it isnt funny.His records should be permanently erased from the books
  4. 19 Jun '12 04:13
    The most amazing part of the case is the jury believed that Clemens' wife but not Clemens was given illegal performance enhancing substance.
  5. Subscriber shortcircuit
    The Energizer
    19 Jun '12 04:34
    Originally posted by mudpie
    Leave it to a Texan to give a bye to a Texan. This dirty bastard was so full of juice for so long it isnt funny.His records should be permanently erased from the books
    You are a first class idiot. You got that?
    You are also as full of crap as a christmas turkey.
    You are way out of your league here.

    Tell me melon head, is it your position that anyone who ever cheated, or broke
    the rules in any way, should be precluded from the Hall of Fame?

    If so, I can pare about half of the current members pretty easily.
    If you want to go to suspicion, it gets worse than that.
  6. 19 Jun '12 15:45
    Performance enhancers are significantly than different than other forms of cheating. It makes guys like Bonds who should decline in performance hit homeruns at literally unpresidented rates. The Hall of Fame should not reward this type of behavior.

    Clemens may not have been convicted of committing perjury. But it does not in any way make his story credible (that only his wife used performance enhancing drugs). It also does not make anything about the Mitchell report less real. It does not explain how his DNA is on McNamee's syringes or how his buddy and teammate Pettitte remembered conversations with Clemens about performance enhancing drug with Clemens and was introduced by Clemens to McNamee and got similar drugs from McNamee for himself.

    In fact the real lesson of this trial is not very different than the OJ trial. When the government does a bad job presenting a case against a famous the athlete there will be an acquital and few people will feel justice has been served.
  7. Subscriber shortcircuit
    The Energizer
    19 Jun '12 16:47 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by quackquack
    Performance enhancers are significantly than different than other forms of cheating. It makes guys like Bonds who should decline in performance hit homeruns at literally unpresidented rates. The Hall of Fame should not reward this type of behavior.

    Clemens may not have been convicted of committing perjury. But it does not in any way make his stor famous the athlete there will be an acquital and few people will feel justice has been served.
    Explain to me the differences in cheating?

    Are you judge and jury as to what type of cheating is worse than another?

    I am talking about players who threw games.
    Players who doctored equipment being used in games.
    Players who evaded paying income taxes intentionally.
    Players who were drug users and abusers.
    Players who were narcotics possessors in quantity.
    Players who committed adultery multiple times.
    Players who associated with gambling establishments.
    Players who battered women.
    Players who drove drunk and played while drunk.

    There are current members of the HOF that fit into each of these categories.

    How do you distinguish between "good" infractions of the rules, and "bad" infractions of the rules?
  8. 19 Jun '12 18:23 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by shortcircuit
    Explain to me the differences in cheating?

    Are you judge and jury as to what type of cheating is worse than another?

    I am talking about players who threw games.
    Players who doctored equipment being used in games.
    Players who evaded paying income taxes intentionally.
    Players who were drug users and abusers.
    Players who were narcotics possessors ...[text shortened]... you distinguish between "good" infractions of the rules, and "bad" infractions of the rules?
    I am not foolish enough to think all violations are equal. When substances allow guys to do things that are otherwise impossible action needs to be taken.

    Here is the list of homeruns by season all time leaders. No one else in century comes closer to what the cheaters were able to do during the height of the steriod era:

    Bonds (age 36) 2001 73 homeruns
    McGwire (age 34) 1998 70 homeruns
    Sosa (age 29) 1998 66 homeruns
    McGwire (age 35) 1999 65 homeruns
    Sosa (age 32) 2001 64 homeruns
    Sosa (age 63) 1999 63 homeruns

    I am not moralizing what is good or bad behavior I am only concerned on substances which give players an unfair advantage. Commiting adultry isn't cheating as it does not make you a better player. Neither does not paying income taxes. Drugs like alcohol would hurt not help you play better. I am not concerned by those who abuse them. Abusing women also does not help you play better. Gambling/ throwing games certainly does not help you win either. These simply are complete nonissues for cheating although I would concede that it probably makes you a bad person.

    Clemens trial was a joke. Pettitte was no allowed to testify that he got drugs from McNamee. They were not allowed to testify that he was inject with steriods they were forced to call them "darts."

    Here are Clemens' stats:
    Age 31 11-14 4.46 ERA
    Age 32 9-7 2.85 ERA
    Age 33 10-5 4.18 ERA
    Age 34 10-13 3.63 ERA
    TOTAL for last four years in Boston is 40-39 with two 4+ ERA seasons only 1 year over 200 innings. His career is in rapid decline as would be expected from power pitchers in the 30s.

    Then he goes to Toronto and meets McNamee a known provider of steriods. The Mitchell report details how he provided to Clemens, Pettitte testifies that McNamee provided steriods to Clemens and him. There is physical evidence with Clemens' DNA.
    Age 35 21-7 2.05 264 IP (where does this season come from?)
    Age 36 20-6 2.65 234.2 IP
    he pitches until age 45. never goes below .500 again. Has 5 more 200+ seasons at ages 38, 39, 41, 42, 43.

    Goes 20-3 at age 38, goes 18-4 with a .298 at age 42.

    I am simply not sure what else any sane person needs to conclude that Clemens' career is 100% fraudulent.
  9. 19 Jun '12 18:27
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-57455533/roger-clemens-acquitted-on-all-charges-in-perjury-trial/?tag=breakingnews


    Whaddya know.
    Now he and OJ can go have a beer together.
  10. Subscriber shortcircuit
    The Energizer
    19 Jun '12 18:29 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by quackquack
    I am not foolish enough to think all violations are equal. When substances allow guys to do things that are otherwise impossible action needs to be taken.

    Here is the list of homeruns by season all time leaders. No one else in century comes closer to what the cheaters were able to do during the height of the steriod era:

    Bonds (age 36) 2001 73 h sure what else any sane person needs to conclude that Clemens' career is 100% fraudulent.
    His body of work PRIOR to Toronto was better than 90% of the careers of the rest.
    Give me a break.

    Go check the career stats for Nolan Ryan.

    Tell me that it has not been done before.
  11. 19 Jun '12 19:01
    Originally posted by shortcircuit
    His body of work PRIOR to Toronto was better than 90% of the careers of the rest.
    Give me a break.

    Go check the career stats for Nolan Ryan.

    Tell me that it has not been done before.
    Here are a few difference between Clemens and Ryan.

    (1) Nolan Ryan didn't pitch during the height of the steroid era.
    (2) Nolan Ryan does not have his DNA on needles. Ryan was not cited in the Mitchell Report.
    (3) Nolan Ryan never met up with someone who admitted to giving him performance enhancers.
    (4) Nolan Ryan never had a former teammate/ friend say that they discussed using performance enhancers and then based on Ryan's introduction got performance enhancers from that person.
    (5) Nolan Ryan never had his wife say she, but not her husband used performance enhancers.
  12. Subscriber shortcircuit
    The Energizer
    19 Jun '12 19:15
    Originally posted by quackquack
    Here are a few difference between Clemens and Ryan.

    (1) Nolan Ryan didn't pitch during the height of the steroid era.
    (2) Nolan Ryan does not have his DNA on needles. Ryan was not cited in the Mitchell Report.
    (3) Nolan Ryan never met up with someone who admitted to giving him performance enhancers.
    (4) Nolan Ryan never had a former teammate/ f ...[text shortened]...
    (5) Nolan Ryan never had his wife say she, but not her husband used performance enhancers.
    You said the numbers were not possible.

    Now you are saying they are possible.

    Which is it?
  13. 19 Jun '12 19:29
    Originally posted by shortcircuit
    You said the numbers were not possible.

    Now you are saying they are possible.

    Which is it?
    Clemens turn around is completely performance enhanced. Ryan's career arch looks nothing like Clemens. There is no sudden surge anywhere. In fact other than the fact that it took Ryan a few years to find himself there is absolutely no pattern in his career.

    While it may be difficult to exulpate certain people in the steriod era. It is amazingly easy to know that someone like Clemens cheated. We know when the career suddenly changes, we know who gave him drugs, we know teammates which also used it. We have neutral reports like the Mitchell Report documenting it. I know some people still believe OJ is innocent so I should accept that no amount of evidence will satisfy them but I cannot imagine what else any human being needs to be convinced that Clemens is a complete fraud.
  14. Subscriber no1marauder
    It's Nice to Be Nice
    19 Jun '12 20:40
    Originally posted by quackquack
    I am not foolish enough to think all violations are equal. When substances allow guys to do things that are otherwise impossible action needs to be taken.

    Here is the list of homeruns by season all time leaders. No one else in century comes closer to what the cheaters were able to do during the height of the steriod era:

    Bonds (age 36) 2001 73 h ...[text shortened]... sure what else any sane person needs to conclude that Clemens' career is 100% fraudulent.
    Doesn't the fact that McNamee wasn't employed by Toronto until AFTER Clemen's Cy Young year of 1997 crush your theory?
  15. 19 Jun '12 20:57 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Doesn't the fact that McNamee wasn't employed by Toronto until AFTER Clemen's Cy Young year of 1997 crush your theory?
    No, there is no reason to think McNamee introduced the idea of performance enhancer. In fact McNamee told the NYT that Clemens asked him to inject making it very possible that Clemens had explored other froms of eprformance enhancers prior to meeting McNamee. Similarly, I doubt Bonds one day woke up called BALCO and got top notch customized drugs. First there is experimentation and one works their way towards harder to get and more effective sources.

    What is clear is that McNamee did help Clemens cheat and that Clemens career completely changed after 4 subpar years in Boston.